Canada Goes Tankless

**TopHatter** · 13 Oct 03,, 16:25

October 13, 2003: Canada is going tankless. For the first time since World War II, Canada will have not MBTs (Main Battle Tanks). Canada has used lighter armored vehicles for nearly a century, and will soon replace it's current (since 1978) 114 Leopard tanks with something lighter. With the end of the Cold War in 1991, Canada withdrew its armored brigade from Europe. Since then, it has had a difficult time sending it's tank anywhere because of their weight (42 tons each). Most Canadian military operations in the past decade have been peacekeeping. There have been times when tanks would have been useful, but the transportation problems proved insurmountable. A new, lighter, armored vehicle (like the U.S. Stryker, which is made in Canada) would probably be used, and the new vehicles are expected to cost about $600 million. Canada already uses LAVs (wheeled armored vehicles) on peacekeeping operations. It will probably be a few years before the last two Canadian tank battalions are disbanded. Many Canadians have been complaining that their armed forces have been turned into a peacekeeping force, leaving Canada dependent on the United States to actually defend the country from some foreign threat. But no one has attempted to invade Canada for nearly two centuries, and that last attempt (by the United States) failed.

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/how...rget=HTARM.HTM

**Officer of Engineers** · 13 Oct 03,, 16:59

As usual, Strategy Page got it all wrong.

Land Force never had tank battalions. It had three battalion sized arm'd regts of which 1 coy size sqdrn is Leopard based. The current army re-org is going to be two arm'd recee (COYOTE) regts and one arm'd regt.

The Leo C2 upgrade program has extended the life of the Leo C2s to 2011. However, with the re-org (surplus Leo C2s) and the time it takes to field new equipment, the Leo C2s would remain in operation until 2020-2025.

The Lord Strathcona Horse (Royal Canadians) deployed a tank troop (pltn) to KFOR and by all accounts, outperformed the Italian CENTAURO in theatre.

Project Management Office Armoured Combat Vehicle has been looking at the Leo replacement for over 10 years. Our zipperheads are hard drivers. Before the upgrade program from the Leo C1 to the Leo C2, you can poke a hole through the Leo C1 armour at parts with a pencil.

PMO ACV was looking at buying 2nd hand stuff but doesn't make sense to spend $600mil on something that last only 10 years (most NATO zipperheads are just as hard) and budget limitations says you can even buy a new tank bn on $600mil.

The only thing that CF has to figure out is what to do with the SABRE Force. Wheeled MGS can't perform that role and we're not abandonning SABRE Force.

**TopHatter** · 13 Oct 03,, 17:31

Um, not to start a pissing contest here, but you noted that "as usual Strategy Page got it all wrong".
The only thing I see they got wrong was the sentance misstating that Land Force has tank battalions when, as you pointed out, they instead have armored battalions with a company of Leopard tanks.
I think the main thrust of the article was to state that Canada would be doing away with tanks (for the forseeable future?)
If this is true, I hardly think they got it "all wrong".

Respectfully
Joe

**Officer of Engineers** · 13 Oct 03,, 17:58

Originally posted by TopHatter
Um, not to start a pissing contest here, but you noted that "as usual Strategy Page got it all wrong".
The only thing I see they got wrong was the sentance misstating that Land Force has tank battalions when, as you pointed out, they instead have armored battalions with a company of Leopard tanks.
I think the main thrust of the article was to state that Canada would be doing away with tanks (for the forseeable future?)
If this is true, I hardly think they got it "all wrong".

Respectfully
Joe

I'm not too worry about Strategy Page as their comments are usually amateurish and non-reflective of the actual situation. No, even main thrust is wrong. As I indicated, the CF is NOT doing away with tanks. It'll be in service until at least 2011, more likely 2020-2025. There is no doubt that LF is infantry centric but SABRE Force remains the Decisive Force in our doctrines. What'll replace tanks in the SABRE Force, PMO ACV currently does not know but it certainly won't be a wheeled MGS which is classified by PMO ACV as a DSFV (Direct Support Fire Vehicle), ie inf support, not the Decisive Force.

I should say that Strategy Page's Jim Dunnigan is amateurish. They take the gist of a given situation and then give it an over-simplified assessement and then an erred conclusion based upon that assessement. The above is an example.

We never had an armoured bde in Europe. The 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was a mech inf unit.

**TopHatter** · 13 Oct 03,, 18:13

Ahh. Thanks for the clarification. I agree, StrategyPage tends to oversimplify the situation. Which is not always a bad thing, since it's nice to have quick read on things.
On the other hand, it is nice to another perspective such as yours.

**ChrisF202** · 13 Oct 03,, 18:41

Ok so Canada is not getting rid of there tanks or are they? I hope they arent as we dont have any troops to guard Canada.

**bigross86** · 13 Oct 03,, 19:05

But Canada has men riding mad caribous wielding hockey sticks yelling "EH!!!!" :dbanana :sniper :dbanana :sniper :dbanana :sniper

Just kidding OOE. Calm down...

**TopHatter** · 13 Oct 03,, 19:08

Well, I don't think the Canadians need any help guarding their borders. After all, their only neighbor is the United States and no other country has the neccessary amphibious lift capability to pose a credible threat.

**ChrisF202** · 13 Oct 03,, 19:34

You dont think there any terrorists coming in via Canada?

**TopHatter** · 13 Oct 03,, 19:55

Sure there are, but you don't defend against terrorist with armored battalions in your own home country. In the case of Canada, I believe that would that would fall under the jurisdiction of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and/or local athorities.

**Officer of Engineers** · 13 Oct 03,, 19:56

Originally posted by ChrisF202
Ok so Canada is not getting rid of there tanks or are they? I hope they arent as we dont have any troops to guard Canada.

No, we're not getting rid of our tanks. We're not buying new ones which essentially means that we'll drive our current ones into the ground before we decide what to do with SABRE Force. You're looking at a decision point around 2012-2015.

Originally posted by ChrisF202
You dont think there any terrorists coming in via Canada?

That is a police matter, not a military matter. The military does not have jurisdiction in finding, catching, and prosecuting terrorists on Canadian soil. We'll re-enforce law-enforcement as a matter of law but cannot initiate action.

Originally posted by bigross86
But Canada has men riding mad caribous wielding hockey sticks yelling "EH!!!!"

Just kidding OOE. Calm down...

Well, get it right. We're riding around in dog sleds with hockey sticks going from igloo to igloo, trying to stay fucking warm by eating beaver and going "EHHHHH!!!!!!!!"

With apologies to any ladies out there for those sexist remarks.

I wonder how many of you guys get it.

**bigross86** · 13 Oct 03,, 20:09

Very funny, OOE. :LOL :dbanana :LOL :dbanana

Have you ever heard theCamel Toe Song??

**TopHatter** · 13 Oct 03,, 20:50

Well, eating beaver is wonderfully nutritious and so good for you. I recommend eating beaver 3-4 times a day if possible.

**ZFBoxcar** · 13 Oct 03,, 21:05

the RCMP and CSIS are in charge of combatting terrorism, and they have done a pretty good job since 9/11.

**Ironduke** · 13 Oct 03,, 21:08

Originally posted by TopHatter
Well, eating beaver is wonderfully nutritious and so good for you. I recommend eating beaver 3-4 times a day if possible.

Isn't it a good idea to take a week off every month, so it doesn't get repetitious?