Thread: Canada Goes Tankless

If true this is good news.

I just pulled this from the CFRA web site..

Military Looking to Buy New Tanks
Josh Pringle
Tuesday, October 31, 2006

The Department of National Defence is shopping for new tanks.

CTV News reports the Canadian Military is negotiating the purchase of as many as 100 surplus tanks from the German and Swiss armies.

Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier has become the first Canadian general to send Canadian tanks into combat, using them in Afghanistan.

Five of the 42-tonne Leopard tanks are already in Afghanistan with another dozen scheduled to arrive over the next month.

A new Leopard 2 can cost up to six million dollars.

double posts are the devil.

triple posts are satan himself.

Don't get your hopes up too high. This is just the start of the process and no decision about a decision has been made.


Army might buy surplus tanks from Germans, Swiss

The A4 variant of the Leopard 2 Tank, made by KMW.

The A4 variant of the Leopard 2 Tank, made by KMW.
The A5 variant of the Leopard 2 Tank, made by KMW.

The A5 variant of the Leopard 2 Tank, made by KMW.

David Akin, CTV News

Updated: Tue. Oct. 31 2006 11:27 PM ET

OTTAWA — Canadian army officers are negotiating the purchase of as many as 100 surplus tanks from the German and Swiss armies, CTV News has learned.

The deal may yet fall through but, even if it does, the fact that army officers are contemplating a purchase that could more than double the number of tanks in the Canadian Forces represents a significant strategic shift, military analysts say.

As recently as 2003, military planners were proceeding to sell, dismantle and mothball Canada's tanks. The Liberal government of the day approved a $3-billion plan to replace Canada's fleet of 66 Leopard 1 tanks with lighter, faster and more mobile armoured vehicles.

At that time, Rick Hillier, then a Lt. Gen but now the Chief of Defence Staff, said tanks were "useless for soldiers in ... Kabul," and he characterized tanks as a "millstone that has hamstrung our thinking for years."

But despite available funding, those vehicles have never been purchased and Hillier has become the first Canadian general to send Canadian tanks into combat in five decades.

Hillier was travelling Tuesday and unavailable for comment. A Canadian Forces spokesperson said: "There are no plans to purchase any Leopard tanks at this time."

Five Leopards are already in Afghanistan with another dozen scheduled to arrive over the next month, much to the delight of the infantry who see the presence of the 42-tonne vehicles as a great morale booster.

But that morale boost comes with a hefty price tag. Government sources say it costs $1-million to transport each tank from their base at Wainwright, Alta. to Kandahar.

But despite the high cost, army planners are trying to build the business case to set up another battle group.

Industry and military observers trace the ascendancy of the tanks within the Canadian Forces to the appointment of Lt. General Andrew Leslie as chief of the Canada's Land Forces. Leslie is believed to an unabashed fan of the tank. He would find an ally in Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor's top policy advisor, Col. (Ret'd) Howie Marsh. Marsh, a former tank commander himself, was a critic of earlier plans to mothball Canada's tanks.

Both O'Connor, a former general, and Hillier also started their military careers as tank commanders.

None of those individuals were available for interviews on the subject.

But industry sources say the Canadians are considering the purchase of either or both the A4 and A5 variant of the Leopard 2 from the Germans and the Swiss. The Leopard 2 is an updated and improved version of the Leopard 1s already in operation in the Canadian Forces.

It's not clear if the tanks to be purchased would be put to use in Afghanistan.

The asking price for the tanks may be too good to pass up. While a brand new Leopard 2 can cost up to $6 million each, the Canadians may be able to purchase them for as little as $350,000 each. European armies, who once thought they would need thousands of tanks to counter a possible Russian threat now find themselves with too many tanks as that threat has largely evaporated. Consequently, there are many more vendors of tanks than buyers and surplus tanks can be purchased at fire-sale prices.

The money for the tank purchase could be diverted from the $3-billion project approved by the Liberals to buy lighter, faster armoured vehicles. CTV News has learned that one of those projects -- the Stryker Mobile Gun System -- has effectively been cancelled after problems were identified with the Stryker's gun turret system.

One industry source said the Leopard tanks Canada is looking at from the Germans and the Swiss are nearly new, "only driven by a little old lady on Sunday."

But some military analysts say Hillier's 2003 instinct was correct: That Canada ought to spend its money to make its army more mobile by increasing its inventory of lighter, faster vehicles.

"We haven't used tanks in the past 50 years. Unless you can clearly define a tank threat, why would you want to have tanks that are expensive to acquire, maintain and deploy?," said Col. (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau.

Col. Marsh, though, is already on record defending the tanks. In April, 2005, Marsh, who was working as a consultant at the time, told a House of Commons defence committee that the tank could be assigned a variety of tasks.

"The tank is the only vehicle in Canada that can forge through 1.5 metres of water without preparation. So if you had a major flood in a city and you wanted to ferry people through water over 6 feet, the tank is probably one of the best things going," Marsh said. "It also has a 20-tonne drawbar pull, so it can push and pull 20 tonnes of debris. It is an incredibly flexible vehicle that could be used when you get into extreme national emergencies and disasters, and the fact that it only costs $28 million a year to maintain means it's one of those cheap tools that you really don't want to get rid of."

Opposition politicians say any purchasing decisions ought to wait until the government presents its overdue Defence Capabilities Plan, a policy document that would serve as a blueprint for military planning, mapping out the kinds of missions the Canadian Forces would be likely be assigned over the next several years.

"We know there's need," said Ujjal Dosanjh, the Liberal defence critic. "But how can we judge whether what we're buying is appropriate unless we have the total overall defence capabilities plan."

© Copyright 2006 CTV Inc.

Wow, at 350,000 per unit, how can the Government pass this up? The Liberals bought 4 submarines at dirt cheap prices, however they were sitting in dry dock for years and were decomissioned by the brits because of ongoing electrical problems..

These vehicles, unlike those subs, are state of the art. You would be cutting huge costs in the form of maintaning of the older Leo's.

(seeing as I am going through for armoured, Im a little biased, what I would do to ride around in a Leo2 on the Alberta plains!!)

LOL, the Colonel will know just how much personal satisfaction all of this news gives me.

Well, any chance of the CF getting the MGS is now out the window. Doesn't make sense to get a MGS for a $1mil a piece when a LEO 2 can be had for less than half that.

So if the CF does get these Leo2's do you think that they would keep the Leo c2's?

I mean they spent alot of money on those upgrades, might aswell use them right?

Or would they give the chasis to the forest-fire-fighters? I know that a few of the older leo's had there chasis stripped down and are now used in fighting forest fires in remote areas.

No, they'll do whatever they planned on doing with them when they planned on replacing them with the MGS.

Oops..

After the re-org, I can't see more than 50-60 tanks. CFB Wainright is the only place that can handle the training. It no longer make sense to re-org the 12RBC and the RCD back to arm'd regts instead of arm'd recee. The transportation costs from the East to West would chew up half the training budget.

So you dont think that the CF will purchase these tanks? And isnt Gagetown able to handle the training also?

Seeing as the military is looking to expand, perhaps they might expand the armoured numbers also, which might mean a need for more vehicles