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Thread: Was Bosnia Worth It?

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    I agree. I only have to add few words. I’m not sure that SFOR is unable or unwilling to solve the question of mujahedins. There were reports that some members of The Nord-Polish Battle Group have seen them, and even some soldiers of 3rd infantry division gave interview for “Stars and Stripes” confirming their sightings, too. Explaining why this is happening one American official said that Bosnia is still democracy in development and its rule of law is not enough mature to solve this question!?
    The mere presence of the people is not enough to justify military actions. SFOR does not have a mandate to police but to adhere to the tenets of the accords. They can run around screaming bloody jihad and we can do nothing about it. It's only when they start having military exercises and the usage of illegal weapons (and I'm not talking a few AK47s), then we can intervene.

    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    I think is that it is a matter of political will and political decision mainly by State Department and I'm not sure that they want that.
    Of course it's political will. In the West, the military does not make policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    And I’m not sure that I understand correctly “a pox on all your houses" (sorry, my bad English again, could you explain me that, please?).
    It means these are your troubles (as in Serbs and ethnic Albanians) and we're tired of getting involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    But I have to admit that this is first case that somebody from west clearly told me the words “supported the terrorists”, and I thank you for that. Problem is that they even now have western support/toleration in some extent.
    The Kosovo War is universally detested by the militaries who were involved previously in Yugoslavia. Alot of members, including myself and MGen MacKenzie, publically spoke out against starting the war, including testifying in various government committees in the US, UK, and Canada. We knew who the KLA were and what they did. However, we're soldiers. Once the order is given, we obeyed and alter our view the only way we knew how - through victory.
    Chimo

  2. #107
    Senior Contributor kNikS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    The mere presence of the people is not enough to justify military actions. SFOR does not have a mandate to police but to adhere to the tenets of the accords. They can run around screaming bloody jihad and we can do nothing about it. It's only when they start having military exercises and the usage of illegal weapons (and I'm not talking a few AK47s), then we can intervene.



    Of course it's political will. In the West, the military does not make policy.



    It means these are your troubles (as in Serbs and ethnic Albanians) and we're tired of getting involved.



    The Kosovo War is universally detested by the militaries who were involved previously in Yugoslavia. Alot of members, including myself and MGen MacKenzie, publically spoke out against starting the war, including testifying in various government committees in the US, UK, and Canada. We knew who the KLA were and what they did. However, we're soldiers. Once the order is given, we obeyed and alter our view the only way we knew how - through victory.
    I know for SFOR problems. We have the similar one in Ground Safety Zone. In hypothetical case that Albanians build their terrorist training camp/base next to our base we have no mandate to respond. They could aim their (variety of) weapons on us and we can only wait. My point is that these situations are not guarantying safety or peace for anyone and they could be solved with some political action (I prefer to avoid discussion about any latter military one as consequence of previous).

    As far as I see, the Albanians are the only ones that are not tired since they are rearming as crazy.

    It seems to be that we are sharing the opinion concerning political decisions which led to NATO involvement in Yugoslavia, at least in Kosovo. And, I have fairly good opinion about Canadians because of MGen MacKenzie. At this moment I am reading newspaper article which says that he (and LGen Sir Michael Rose) will testify for our side in Bosnia’s charge against Serbia and Montenegro. Of course, this is only an additional reason.
    And my girlfriend has relatives in Toronto, she hopes that she could finish her biology studies there.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    It seems to be that we are sharing the opinion concerning political decisions which led to NATO involvement in Yugoslavia, at least in Kosovo.
    The Serbs screwed up by not hiring the right PR people and your propaganda department really sucked. The Albanians hired the right people in New York.

    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    And my girlfriend has relatives in Toronto, she hopes that she could finish her biology studies there.
    The University of Toronto is a great school but if she can speak French, Ottawa University may be a better choice. The cost of living is not so high in Ottawa.
    Chimo

  4. #109
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    It was definetely worth it. Inevitably like Rwandan Genocide,middle east the structure means these conflicts will spark up again and a war will be fought on two fronts that will this time be more complicated for nato forces.

  5. #110
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    Earlier, kniks mention the Dayton agreement. Im sure you all know that each "side" got given rights to its own government, police army etc etc, as if it were a proper country.

    This is one of the facts that I base my opinion about another Bosnia war soon, is that Eshdown (spelling?) is continualy breaking the rules by, disarming Republic of Srpska. This is just one of many examples of the things he took away, clearly promised to us in the Dayton agreement. Now what happened, is that RS refused to give up their police. What did Mr. Eshdown do ? He imposed financial sanctions to RS.

    Now, noone here is stupid, and I think that if we asses the situatio clearly, it tells you that there is no bright future for Bosnia. Im not sure how many of you lived under sanctions, but its one of the WORST things that can happen to you.

    Secondly, people of RS (knowing the mentality of them) will not stand at watch their country just get takn away from them, even though they are "protected" by the Dayton agreemnt. I don't need to tell you what will happene to that region if the lid gets blown off the pot.

  6. #111
    Senior Contributor kNikS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    The Serbs screwed up by not hiring the right PR people and your propaganda department really sucked. The Albanians hired the right people in New York.
    I know, you already posted that in some other thread. What’s makes me sad is very minority of people in the west knows that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    The University of Toronto is a great school but if she can speak French, Ottawa University may be a better choice. The cost of living is not so high in Ottawa.
    She doesn’t know the word of french, her secondary foreign language in elementary school was russian (damn communism again). Anyway, thanks for advice.
    Last edited by kNikS; 26 Sep 05, at 15:58.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando
    It was definetely worth it. Inevitably like Rwandan Genocide,middle east the structure means these conflicts will spark up again and a war will be fought on two fronts that will this time be more complicated for nato forces.
    Worth of Bosnia was that atrocities stopped but there must be solution acceptable for all sides for long term stability. And toleration of Muslim radicalization (mujahedins) while canceling Serbian entity security structures (guaranteed by DA) surely isn’t the right way.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    I know, you already posted that in some other thread. What’s makes me sad is very minority of people in the west knows that.
    Those NY guys wouldn't be doing their jobs if it was known, would they? This being said, why ain't the Serbs hiring them yet?
    Chimo

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    Those NY guys wouldn't be doing their jobs if it was known, would they? This being said, why ain't the Serbs hiring them yet?
    Sadly, corruption is still high in Serbia and other Balkan countries. You would not believe what a polititian would do for money in the Balkans. I know this first hand, since my town and my people got sold out during Bosnia conflict. If you are interested I can provide you with figure as well.

    And since it is still possible to screw the system over to your financial advantage, why would anyone bother hiring NY boys, since they sold Kosovo already.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad95
    And since it is still possible to screw the system over to your financial advantage, why would anyone bother hiring NY boys, since they sold Kosovo already.
    YOU'RE FUCCKKING SHIIIITTING ME!!!!!!! We went to war over NOTHING? Just when I thought I could not be surprised by the brutal garbage of the place, you hit me one lower.
    Chimo

  11. #116
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    Bosnia's Stalled Police Reform: No Progress, No EU
    Europe Report N°164
    6 September 2005

    The Executive Summary and Recommendations of this report are also available in Russian

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS

    The international strategy for Bosnia and Herzegovina risks derailment. It consists entirely of preparing the country for eventual European Union (EU) membership in the hope that integration processes will overcome ethno-political divides and their intertwined economic and criminal interests. However, the police reform needed to begin negotiations on a Stabilisation and Association Agreement (SAA) with the EU appears hopelessly blocked. With integration stalled, the international community will have to maintain its High Representative in Sarajevo for at least two to three years, if not longer, to head off dangers of new conflict unless it acts decisively in the next several weeks to confront the chief obstacles to reform: the main Bosnian Serb political party and the Belgrade government of Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica.

    Bosnia has long needed substantive police reform. During the 1992-1995 war, the police were a key instrument of ethnic cleansing -- particularly in Republika Srpska (RS) and the Croatian areas of the Federation. The war left Bosnia with three police forces: Bosniak, Croat and Serb, each with its own jurisdictions. The first two have since merged, at least nominally, but the RS has refused all efforts to reform structures or integrate them with those of other ethnic groups. Police throughout the country have remained highly politicised, acting at the behest of politicians to obstruct implementation of the Dayton Peace Accords, in particular refugee return, and heavily involved in organised crime. The RS force is filled with war criminals and actively supports persons indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in The Hague.

    The Office of the High Representative (OHR) is attempting to gain agreement on sweeping police reform for the entire country to satisfy criteria established by the European Commission as preconditions for SAA negotiations. It has failed, due to obstruction from the Serbian side. The leading RS party -- the Serbian Democratic Party (SDS) -- openly blocks all efforts at reform and receives active encouragement from the Serbian government, the Serbian Orthodox Church and Serbia's security structures, which desire to annex RS as part of a Kosovo final status settlement.

    The OHR and Bosnia's other parties have made significant concessions to the RS, watering down the reform proposal to the extent that it may not satisfy two of the three European Commission criteria, but in vain. The most recent idea floated by the Bosnian prime minister would merely delay the important decisions for at least a year or two and would not constitute serious reform.

    If a 15 September deadline is not met, the European Commission will formally reject Bosnia's bid to negotiate an SAA, and the reform window will close at least for two years, because the country will be preoccupied with elections in 2006. The only chance to get police reform and European integration back on track is for the international community to decide now to put meaningful pressure on the obstructionists in Banja Luka and Belgrade, beginning with a decision to shake up RS politics by banning the SDS if its failure to compromise on police reform causes Bosnia to miss the deadline for EU negotiations. It should also reassess the disappointing performance of the EU Police Mission (EUPM) and use the expiration of its mandate at year's end to replace it with a more effective institution with a broader mandate.

    RECOMMENDATIONS

    To the High Representative and Members of the Peace Implementation Council:

    1. Insist that the current watered-down proposal be strengthened to meet the three criteria established by the European Commission.

    2. Place serious pressure on the Republika Srpska to accept police reform, beginning by banning the SDS as a political party and seizing its assets if its failure to compromise on police reform causes Bosnia to miss the deadline for negotiations with the EU on a Stabilisation and Association Agreement.

    3. Seek a public declaration from Belgrade that it has no territorial aspirations towards Bosnia and Herzegovina and will respect Bosnia's borders in the event of a Kosovo final status determination.

    4. Return to the original police reform plan developed by the EUPM, including:

    (a) five police regions rather than ten;

    (b) community oversight councils, with participation of local civil society groups, particularly women; and

    (c) without entity representatives as deputies to the director of local police, the community oversight councils, and the police board.

    To the European Union:

    5. Place serious pressure on Belgrade to support international community policy on Bosnia, beginning with a warning that the Stabilisation and Association process with Serbia and Montenegro will be suspended unless the Kostunica government uses its influence with the RS to achieve early agreement on police reform.

    6. Shut down the EUPM at the end of its mandate and establish in its place a new police mission with a mandate at least as strong as that of the EUPM's predecessor organisation, the International Police Task Force (IPTF), with the expectation that its powers will be used to remove recalcitrant police officials.

    http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=3645&l=1

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    YOU'RE FUCCKKING SHIIIITTING ME!!!!!!! We went to war over NOTHING? Just when I thought I could not be surprised by the brutal garbage of the place, you hit me one lower.
    Vlad is right. Somebody told once that this war was Tudjman and Milosevic fake war in which only real things were corpses. A lot of corpses. You would be surprised if I told you that even I am occasionally surprised with brutal garbage of a place I am living in. But I’m still alive, right?

  13. #118
    Senior Contributor kNikS's Avatar
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    Ray,General,

    I’m not sure do you know that International Crisis Group is nongovernmental organization largely depending on non/anti-Serbian influence. Like I said canceling RS security structures while toleration of muslim radicalism (not to even mention their jihadi war criminals and mujahedins) isn’t the right way. Should I mention fact/possibility that some of them are now fighting in Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, ..KASHMIR?

    http://www.stripesonline.com/article...2&archive=true
    http://www.balkanpeace.org/cib/bos/bos22.shtml
    http://www.saag.org/papers4/paper306.html
    ..and numerous other links.
    Last edited by kNikS; 27 Sep 05, at 11:58.

  14. #119
    Senior Contributor Amled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kNikS
    ...But I’m still alive, right?
    Stay that way!
    You seem like a reasonable person in an area where such a virtue is sadly lacking!
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

  15. #120
    Senior Contributor kNikS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amled
    Stay that way!
    You seem like a reasonable person in an area where such a virtue is sadly lacking!
    As far as I am concerned I will, thanks.

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