US 'shelves Europe missile plan'

**astralis** · 17 Sep 09,, 19:31

keith,

This thread has seen the stupidest, most puerile commentary on a major Russian/Iranian victory, and a massive US/European defeat that can be imagined.

Of all the things that Obama has managed to wreck in the foreign policy and defense realm, THIS is going to be apocalyptic.

I use that word with full consciousness.

so, tell me that you think OSD and JS are idiotic. i know the guys working on this, including the AOs from JS/J5, and the service AOs from the AF in AF/A5 and AF/A8...and they don't think the plan is idiotic or apocalyptic. they were unanimous for moving this.

**Silent Hunter** · 17 Sep 09,, 19:34

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Is THIS what passes for Brit thinking on American national interest? You're qualified for a 'power' Cabinet post under Obama.

I support missile defence, which you will still have.

**astralis** · 17 Sep 09,, 19:50

why don't we look at some more specific military voices.

The Associated Press: Gates: US intelligence caused change in plans

http://www.c4isrjournal.com/story.php?F=4181596

the question here is if this missile shield is actually built against russia or iran. if you're building against iran, having sites closer to the middle east makes a LOT more sense.

if you're building against russia...well, given the state of missile defense, it will be a lot easier for russia to simply ramp up its own missile deployments and construction to offset. that's not true with the iranian case.

**Dreadnought** · 17 Sep 09,, 20:02

From what I understand from Gates point of view is its not over just changed. And perhaps the looming deal with Turkey may have played a roll.

**astralis** · 17 Sep 09,, 20:05

from the gates plan, we're actually looking at a system which MAY ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING against iran, instead of a symbolic system which couldn't defend the nations it was supposed to be shielding from a russian girl scout throwing spitballs.

**Silent Hunter** · 17 Sep 09,, 20:07

Originally Posted by astralis

from the gates plan, we're actually looking at a system which MAY ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING against iran, instead of a symbolic system which couldn't defend the nations it was supposed to be shielding from a russian girl scout throwing spitballs.

Hear, hear!

**Rumrunner** · 17 Sep 09,, 20:58

I doubt this move has much to do with intercepting Iran's missiles - my money is on Afghanistan's supply line too.

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Which is not happening now, and never will, but if it ever did, it gives the Russians a voice, and ultimately the POWER to make our efforts there not only fail, but actually holds our troops hostage to potential enemy.

It actually has been under research since at least 2008 when it became pretty clear that Pakistan was no place to be sending 3/4 of your supplies overland. There is a serious US effort underway to find another viable overland route for supplies to Afghanistan either through the former SSR's of Georgia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan by rail/ship/rail from Black Sea ports across the Caspian or by containerized rail from Baltic SSR's which use the same rail guage as Afghanistan.

Both options involve heavy negotiation with the host states about moving military hardware though their borders. The Black Sea route, especially East of the Caspian, involves dealing with some countries that are still very closely tied with Russia. Going via the Baltic involves sending your cargo directly over Russian soil at one point or another.

Either way, you are going to have to massage Russian interests to get it to work.

This article, though dated, does a good job of explaining the Black Sea route, but I read something more recent in American Shipper about the Baltic route which I'm searching for now.
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/200..._supply_routes

**axeman** · 17 Sep 09,, 21:32

Originally Posted by Bluesman

The fact is, Obama has just managed to negate the greatest US advantage in ballistic missile defense against what is now an all but certain fait accompli: Iranian nuclear warheads that someday can, and someday probably will, reach Europe.

Have you seen something in that crystal ball that everyone else hasn't ?

**astralis** · 17 Sep 09,, 21:44

Wealth of Nations : Meet Dean Wilkening, the Man Behind the Missile-Shield Decision

**BD1** · 17 Sep 09,, 21:46

Poland and Czech goverment´s , after taking lot of heat for being American lapdogs, pissing off Russia, getting heat from the countries that the shield was supposed to protect - the Western Europe , have spent huge amount of political capital on this project.

If i were them, I´d order Obama-pictured toilet paper for all their goverment´s offices.

Oh, and of course all this in 70th anniversary of invading Poland.

**Tarek Morgen** · 17 Sep 09,, 21:48

the Soviet invasion. The Germans started right at the first September.

**BD1** · 17 Sep 09,, 22:21

Thanks Tarek, i was in hurry. :(

**Bluesman** · 17 Sep 09,, 23:13

Originally Posted by BD1

Poland and Czech goverment´s , after taking lot of heat for being American lapdogs, pissing off Russia, getting heat from the countries that the shield was supposed to protect - the Western Europe , have spent huge amount of political capital on this project.

If i were them, I´d order Obama-pictured toilet paper for all their goverment´s offices.

Oh, and of course all this in 70th anniversary of invading Poland.

Yeah; that is the most damaging part of this.

Once again, an American enemy (two, actually) is gratified by an Obama action; and, once again, an American ally (two, actually) is discomfited by an Obama action.

This guy is GOOD. Who knew he could cram this much damage into a single act?

**Bluesman** · 18 Sep 09,, 00:51

Originally Posted by astralis

keith,

so, tell me that you think OSD and JS are idiotic.

Okey-doke; I will. They are.

i know the guys working on this, including the AOs from JS/J5, and the service AOs from the AF in AF/A5 and AF/A8...and they don't think the plan is idiotic or apocalyptic. they were unanimous for moving this.

WELL. THAT sure worked like gangbusters, huh? Not even ONE DAY passes before the Russians flip us off in public. What could be a clearer demo of the contempt they have for this hapless President of ours that THIS:

Russian FM says no new sanctions on Iran
Thu Sep 17, 11:51 am ET

MOSCOW – Russia's foreign minister says Moscow firmly opposes any new sanctions against Iran.

Sergey Lavrov says new tougher sanctions would ruin hopes for solving the Iranian nuclear program through talks.

Lavrov's statement Thursday came shortly before President Barack Obama announced shelving a plan for a missile defense shield in Eastern Europe. Russia has strongly opposed the plan.

Obama's move comes as Washington badly needs Moscow's support to increase pressure on Iran over its nuclear program.

But Lavrov's comments signal that Moscow won't back tougher sanctions against Iran, whom the U.S. and other Western nations suspect of developing nuclear weapons.

**Bluesman** · 18 Sep 09,, 00:53

Give it up. You can't defend this decision. It is ruinous, and obviously so. I don't give a hoot in hell what any time-serving hack bureaucrat signs up for this steaming heap, it's a damned disaster.

And you'll acknowledge it by and by.