NATO member Turkey and Russia ink strategic alliance

**Vord** · 22 Mar 09, 03:42

But neither has so far. Not something really needed since, there were plenty of historians documenting the events. Very little from that time is secret.

Just googled a little and found this. Might be of some interest to you.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/w...7234.asp?scr=1

**LetsTalk** · 22 Mar 09, 03:47

Originally Posted by Vord

Also, how Turkey has expanded into the East Mediterranean? It merely used its guarantor status and ovieded a hostile take over and annexation of the entire island by Greece. It's not expansion. It's saving your brothers and sisters from murderers and rapists.

The fact is that Turkey, had the Attila Operation in the works for a long time, they were just waiting for the opportune moment, they were waiting for the right excuse.

Also before using the term "murderers and rapists", you might want to read about the Turkish Invasion of Cyprus, and what happened to the Greeks in Istanbul in 1955, and find out why there is only 2-4 thousands left out of the 135,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955_Istanbul_pogrom

Just saying, you may want to due some research and reading before throwing out labels like that.

**~~KRON1~~** · 22 Mar 09, 03:52

Originally Posted by Vord

So what if it was given to the Azeris. Doesn't that alone make it technically Azeri? A lot of lands have changed hands throughout human history. When you look from that perspective the Turks don't belong in Anatolia either, for example. But still, I'd like to see someone come and try kicking us out. What's happened in the past has happened and we all have to live with it today. When I look at a non-Armenian world map (like those printed in the US) today, I see that Karabakh belongs to the people and government of Azerbaijan, and therefore whatever troops Armenia has there are an illegal force of occupation.

It doesn't matter what our maps say. Russia is the one who determines who owns that piece of real-estate. No one in the West is going to fight Russkies over that. If Turkey gets pulled into defending Azerbaijani offensive into occupied territory... you're own your own.

That makes THEM the aggressors, not the Azeris who were given the land back when most of us forumers weren't around. It's only natural for Azerbaijan to try to liberate what legally belongs to them one day.

There you go with that ancient claims thinking again. You have to look at the realities of TODAY. Russia backs Armenia, they even have a nuclear defense pact with them. No one is going to mess with Armenia and their forces in the disputed region. After seeing what Russia did in Georgia, I don't think anyone will try something that stupid again.

Armenia, unfortunately, have played their cards wrong all along. Mistakes started pre-WWI era when the Ottoman Empire was the weakest, and have continued to this day. If Turks really hated Armenians and wanted them to disappear, I'm betting we'd have 'genocided' them many times over throughout the centuries long history of the Ottoman Empire, and especially during the years when the Ottoman Empire was the America of the world.

Didn't someone just say no one cares about the Ottoman Empire anymore?

Armenia is yet to open up their national historic archives to independent historians. A step that Turkey has agreed to take a long time ago. What do they have to hide?

Honestly, I don't see why people still care about that genocide thing. We all know it happened on both sides, albiet the Ottomans killed far more.

**Vord** · 22 Mar 09, 03:52

Thanks. Another good piece of reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA-B

**LetsTalk** · 22 Mar 09, 04:01

Originally Posted by Vord

We're veering completely off topic and I hope the topic starter or the moderators won't mind, but I'm really enjoying our discussions LetsTalk. And thanks for the friend invitation too.

Well, the ones who lived in the Ottoman Empire would have been 'genocided' many times over and over then. Why exactly did the Turks/Ottomans decide to wait until the collapse of their empire to realize that they wanted to cleanse the area of Armenians? It doesn't make any sense. Obviously, the Armenians themselves had a whole lot to do with what might have happened to them and this notion that they're a completely innocent people and that they're the sole victims of WW1 is completely baseless and wrong to say the least.

Most empires have crumbled, especially those that occupied significant number of ethicities, Rome, Persian Empires, Byzantine Empire, and the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire as I am sure you know had to also deal with growing Nationalism, and an aging empire that fell behind in technology, and financially. Simply put like all empires, it came to its end. The cleansing of once empire of all minorities has happened several times in history, Turkey had simply gotten tired of the rebellions, and loosing its territory, and decided to get rid of a minority that sided with an invader (Russia). So the Ottoman Empire decided to rid its self from the Armenian minority, and was successful. Most people consider those actions genocide.

**Vord** · 22 Mar 09, 04:01

Didn't someone just say no one cares about the Ottoman Empire anymore?

Yes, Turks couldn't care less. But obviously the Armenians haven't been able to get over it and having nothing else to do, continue to cry about it to this day.

**LetsTalk** · 22 Mar 09, 04:08

Originally Posted by Vord

Thanks. Another good piece of reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA-B

I am glad you are using WIKI also.

I read both your articles. Yes EOKA-B was not very nice, neither was the Greek dictatorship at the time, and neither have most dictatorships. EOKA-B was an arm of the Greek Dictators in Greece. And they killed Greeks and Turks.

**~~KRON1~~** · 22 Mar 09, 04:20

Originally Posted by Vord

Thanks. Another good piece of reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA-B

My friend, EOKA doesn't have much to do with the Turkish occupation. Their express goal was to get UK off the island. When they did, they disbanded. That is a problem with wiki... not too accurate.

**LetsTalk** · 22 Mar 09, 04:36

Originally Posted by KRON1

My friend, EOKA doesn't have much to do with the Turkish occupation. Their express goal was to get UK off the island. When they did, they disbanded. That is a problem with wiki... not too accurate.

Note there was EOKA and EOKA-B.

EOKA had every right to get the Brits of their Island.

**LetsTalk** · 22 Mar 09, 04:48

Originally Posted by Vord

And thanks for the friend invitation too.

Forgot to say thank you for accepting.

**~~KRON1~~** · 22 Mar 09, 05:11

Originally Posted by LetsTalk

Note there was EOKA and EOKA-B.

EOKA had every right to get the Brits of their Island.

Greek Cypriots don't call it EOKA B and don't even recognize the movement. They see the activity as an extension of the Greek Junta. Since it was they that put Grevis back on the island to get rid of Makarois, they didn't have anything to do with it and it is an insult to EOKA veterans if you bring it up to them. EOKA B didn't even call themselves that. They called themselves EOKA but they weren't it.

**LetsTalk** · 22 Mar 09, 05:22

Originally Posted by KRON1

Greek Cypriots don't call it EOKA B and don't even recognize the movement. They see the activity as an extension of the Greek Junta. Since it was they that put Grevis back on the island to get rid of Makaros, they didn't have anything to do with it and it is an insult to EOKA veterans if you bring it up to them. EOKA B didn't even call themselves that. They called themselves EOKA but they weren't it.

Thanks for the clarification.

By the way, it is nice to see some one who is not Greek or Turk take an interest in Cyprus.

**~~KRON1~~** · 22 Mar 09, 06:10

Originally Posted by LetsTalk

Thanks for the clarification.

EOKA veteran is a very proud desginate to be given on Cyprus. I talked with a few of those that spoke English during their holiday on April 1st watching the parades much like our Veterans Day celebrations. They sing EOKA songs and you don't hear a thing about Turks. It is all about getting rid of British rule. They don even sing the enosis songs anymore. Cyprus wants to be their own country and is ready to move on from any Greek or Turk influence, at least on the national level. I am sure there are still some hold outs but they are by far the minority.

By the way, it is nice to see some one who is not Greek or Turk take an interest in Cyprus.

I was just there to do a job. I spent 8 months trying to rebuild that country heading up an engineering unit. I spent most of my time rebuilding roads so Cypriots could cross the Attila Line to see people they had not seen for ages and did EOD all over Nicosia. I am not going to tell you I am totally unbaised after having been there. When I first arrived, I didn't know a thing about Cyprus. When I left, I understood why everyone was so mad at the Turks.

**LetsTalk** · 22 Mar 09, 06:34

Originally Posted by KRON1

EOKA veteran is a very proud desginate to be given on Cyprus. I talked with a few of those that spoke English during their holiday on April 1st watching the parades much like our Veterans Day celebrations. They sing EOKA songs and you don't hear a thing about Turks. It is all about getting rid of British rule. They don even sing the enosis songs anymore. Cyprus wants to be their own country and is ready to move on from any Greek or Turk influence, at least on the national level. I am sure there are still some hold outs but they are by far the minority.

They are part of the EU now, Enosis is not worth it, they have more of a voice being independent.

Originally Posted by KRON1

I was just there to do a job. I spent 8 months trying to rebuild that country heading up an engineering unit. I spent most of my time rebuilding roads so Cypriots could cross the Attila Line to see people they had not seen for ages and did EOD all over Nicosia. I am not going to tell you I am totally unbaised after having been there. When I first arrived, I didn't know a thing about Cyprus. When I left, I understood why everyone was so mad at the Turks.

Few in this country understand or are even aware of the Cyprus issue. So it nice to get to hear from one who was there as part of the UN.

**~~KRON1~~** · 22 Mar 09, 07:10

Originally Posted by Vord

Yes, Turks couldn't care less. But obviously the Armenians haven't been able to get over it and having nothing else to do, continue to cry about it to this day.

I really was suprised how powerful the little Armenian diaspora was to get so many countries to recognize it. It even made it to the floor of US Congress. I feel for their loss but it was a hundred years ago and we have far more important things to be discussing than ancient history.

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