Thread: IISS : Georgia shouldn't join NATO

Originally Posted by TTL

Dreadnouhgt why are you so sure that US won't use her military might to impose her will upon south american countries? In the past you did invade panama and I am pretty sure will again do the same thing if you feel your national interests are at stake.

It does not serve her interests. This visit by Putin to Chavez is nothing more then thumbing the nose. Russia could not supply nor sortie from any base Chavez gives them unless ofcourse he wishes a perminet US base in the Black Sea which we could get courting the other countries that want to join NATO. Russia has already broken the rules of her agreement of Georgia so whats to stop NATO from doing the very same and base in the Black Sea which would be a nightmare for Putin and his puppet. You will notice Chavez remained pretty much silent up and until this point. Putin is doing nothing but playing games with "what if's" and is looking at any means possible to check mate the US and her ABM shield and the forward approach of NATO.

We watch Panama very closely for her link between the Atlantic and the Pacific and would certainly secure the canal on a warfooting. Otherwise the canal and benefits belong to the people of Panama. The US showed good faith in Panama by returning the Canal rights to the people several years ago. We also helped fund the widening project for the locks because it benefits not just the US but the people as well.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

In retospect how would you feel if we did the very same to Cuba, Mexico or any South American country?

First of all, the USA did this many times in the past : Cuba-1961, Grenada-1983, Panama-1989, and also participation in many internal conflicts and civil wars in Latin America - Salvador, Nicaragua, Columbia, Chile and so on.

Second, Cuba, for example, has never shelled the Guantanamo base and hasn't killed the US soldiers who are on the Cuba's soil there.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

You will notice Chavez remained pretty much silent up and until this point.

Uummmmhh....

Chavez Defies U.S. by Dealing with Russia, China
By BEATRIZ LECUMBERRI, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 27 Sep 17:45 EDT (21:45 GMT)

CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's visit to China and Russia this week and the military and energy cooperation deals he signed put him on dangerous ground in his relations with the United States, political analysts said.

"This trip shows he intends not only to break free of the U.S. sphere of influence in matters of defense, but also to strike significant political links with the very powers that challenge U.S. supremacy," international studies professor Elsa Cardozo said.

Since Chavez came to power in 1999, Venezuela has become a major buyer of Russian weaponry on the premise it needs stronger defenses in case it comes under foreign attack. Chavez has repeatedly accused Washington of plotting his overthrow.

During Chavez's visit, Moscow on Sept. 25 announced a $1 billion loan to Venezuela to buy Russian arms. Both countries in 2005 and 2007 signed deals for $4.4 billion of Russian weapons, including fighter jets, tanks and assault rifles.

"The United States has tried to disarm us, to boycott us, and we've got some old, U.S.-made planes that can't fly because the United States won't sell us spare parts," Chavez said.

"I went to Beijing, I went to Moscow, and now we've got a fighter squadron better than the F-16s," he added.

Chavez's trip to Russia came only days after Moscow sent a pair of Tu-160 strategic bombers on a training mission to Venezuela, followed by a naval flotilla led by the nuclear-powered guided missile cruiser Peter the Great.

The Russian warships were to take part in unprecedented joint maneuvers with the Venezuelan navy in the Caribbean Sea, in a part of the world the U.S. has traditionally regarded as its backyard.

"Russia has new intentions, as it has shown in the Caucasus, and Chavez has absolutely irresponsibly opened the doors of the Caribbean and the Venezuela territory to them," said world politics analyst Maruja Tarre. "We don't know why he's done this. We don't know how many Russians will come over. It's something that should be discussed openly, publicly, but that's not the case."

"Russia's game is not Venezuela's, and our country is facing unnecessary risks by taking on an agenda it doesn't control," Cardozo said.

"In its bid to regain its superpower footing, Russia is sending the U.S. a message: 'We've got a welcome mat in South America,'" added the university professor.

So far, Washington has downplayed the Venezuela-Russia overtures.

"Clearly, those two countries ... can work together as they see fit. I just don't consider that a really significant threat at this particular point in time," Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Michael Mullen told reporters Sept. 26.

In another disconcerting move, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's predecessor and now Prime Minister Valdimir Putin on Sept. 25 offered Russia's cooperation in developing nuclear power in Venezuela.

Also of international concern are Venezuela's growing relations with Iran, a country on the U.S. list of state sponsors of terrorism that could be dabbling with nuclear weapons.

"What threat can Venezuela's relations with Iran and Russia pose, when the biggest threat to the world is the U.S. empire's very existence," Chavez said recently.

But Tarre said, "Latin America has vowed to stay a nuclear-free. And Venezuela, apart from not needing nuclear power plants, would be violating (nuclear-free) treaties it signed with other neighboring countries."

During his three-day visit to China earlier this week, Chavez also announced he was buying 24, K-8 reconnaissance and training aircraft from

China, which he said "Venezuela needs very much." Venezuela has also purchased Chinese radar stations in the past.

The K-8 sale went unconfirmed by Chinese authorities, who were very reticent about their relations with Venezuela. Chinese officials denied that any military cooperation agreements were signed during Chavez's visit.

"Even the Chinese said they kept only trade relations with Venezuela, but the Russians have other goals. On their big chessboard, Venezuela is just a pawn to be cast aside when they choose, and that's the end of it," said Tarre.

Link

Georgia wasn't taunted they expected to roll in ethnically cleanse and clear the territories for their settlement... The areas were in a de-facto war for the past 16 years with the territories being fine with status quo, Georgia wanted to change it so she acted. The end.

Russia is not fighting for supremacy globally U.S. is, sabotaging someone else's bid if you have leverage is easier than sustaining a bid. Spheres of influence are reasonable because it is easier to indefinite influence your weaker neighbor forever with mutual benefits U.S. & Canada or Mexico instead of trying to get everyone to your side. Russia unable to do that due to foreign interference is acting rationally.

What happened to the Monroe Doctrine?

Originally Posted by MrFirst

First of all, the USA did this many times in the past : Cuba-1961, Grenada-1983, Panama-1989, and also participation in many internal conflicts and civil wars in Latin America - Salvador, Nicaragua, Columbia, Chile and so on.

Second, Cuba, for example, has never shelled the Guantanamo base and hasn't killed the US soldiers who are on the Cuba's soil there.

First of all remember who defended Cuba during the Spanish American War and secured her freedom.

Greneda- A rivalry between the US and Cuba. A bloody coup and a percieved threat to Americans attending school there with as Marxist government allied to Castro.

Panama- Noreiga and the drug trafficing/ drug money laundering going on in Panama. Friend/Foe no arguments there.

The drug wars Yep the US certainly paticipated in them.

*Second read the Platt Ammendment that allows the US to base there. America did spend lives for Cuba during the Spanish American War and that was long before Castro.

If you read the text of the Platte Ammendment then understand Castro broke the agreement during the Cuban Miissle Crisis as well.


The Platte Ammendment:

The President of the U.S. is hereby authorized to 'leave the government and control of the island of Cuba to its people' so soon as a government shall have been established in said island under a constitution which, either as a part thereof or in an ordinance appended thereto, shall define the future relations of the United States with Cuba, substantially as follows:

I. That the government of Cuba shall never enter into any treaty or other compact with any foreign power or powers which will impair or tend to impair the independence of Cuba, nor in any manner authorize or permit any foreigh power or powers to obtain by colonization or for military or naval purposes or otherwise, lodgment in or control over any portion of said island.

*Castro broke that one for sure. Russia and the Cuban missle crisis comes to mind.

II. That said government shall not assume or contract any public debt, to pay the interest upon which, and to make reasonable sinking fund provision for the ultimate discharge of which the ordinary revenues of the island, after defraying the current expenses of government, shall be inadequate.

III. That the government of Cuba consents that the United States may exercise the right to intervene for the preservation of Cuban independence, the maintenance of a government adequate for the protection of life, property, and individual liberty, and for discharging the obligations with respect to Cuba imposed by the Treaty of Paris on the United States, now to be assumed and undertaken by the government of Cuba.

IV. That all acts of the United States in Cuba during its military occupancy thereof are ratified and validated, and all lawful rights acquired thereunder shall be maintained and protected.

V. That the government of Cuba will execute, and, as far as necessary, extend, the plans already devised or other plans to be mutually agreed upon, for the sanitation of the cities of the island, to the end that a recurrence of epidemic and infectious diseases may be prevented, thereby assuring protection to the people and commerce of Cuba, as well as to the commerce of the southern ports of the United States and the people residing therein.

VI. That the Isle of Pines shall be omitted from the proposed constitutional boundaries of Cuba, the title thereto being left to future adjustment by treaty.

VII. That to enable the United States to maintain the independence of Cuba, and to protect the people thereof, as well as for its defense, the government of Cuba will sell or lease to the United States lands necessary for coaling or naval stations at certain specified points, to be agreed upon with the President of the United States.

VIII. That by way of further assurance the government of Cuba will embody the foregoing provisions in a permanent treaty with the United States.

At last time I checked Georgia did not have a contractual agreement with the Soviets such as above the US and Cuba.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

If you read the text of the Platte Ammendment then understand Castro broke the agreement during the Cuban Miissle Crisis as well.

The Platt Amendment was repealed in 1934.