Russia warns Ukraine it will retaliate over Nato

**Equilibrium** · 13 Sep 08,, 22:26

They have already disappointed China.

The Chinese view interventions as anathema to its policy- they fear that such justifications for interventions can be invoked against China itself.

**Helium** · 14 Sep 08,, 03:00

Originally Posted by Equilibrium

They have already disappointed China.

The Chinese view interventions as anathema to its policy- they fear that such justifications for interventions can be invoked against China itself.

Interesting point

I was just about to say why is the US trying to antagonise or provoke Russia by these NATO "invitations" shouldn't we be drawing Russia in as a friend and away from China, the SCO and the like.

But what you said above, the US's grand strategy may be to alienate Russia from China through provoking it etc. In an attempt to draw China Westward into the already created global economic, social, diplomatic institutions of the world (UN, IMF etc) rather than creating its own. But yes these assumptions/speculations/conspiracies do require a huge stretch of the imagination but I am having alot of trouble trying to figure out the strategic value of extending NATO, more specifically bringing in Ukraine from the USA's perspective and from the EU's.

I cant for the life of me figure out what the USA's or the EU's intentions are for NATO now days yet alone the strategic value of extending NATO.
Maybe its what Mccain said (was it Mccain, i cant remember) about creating an alliance of democracies to promote and extend democracy in the world etc.

**cyppok** · 14 Sep 08,, 05:10

Ukraine will probably default on its external debt next year, it has to make about 5-6 billion dollars in payments.

The funny part prior to the "Orange Revolution" they were making about 2 billion a year from cheaper gas resold to Europe and metallurgical exports to Russia.
Now its up to an almost -5 billion deficit. I do not see them making through 2009 without a default.

The U.S./E.U. can give them 5 billion each for 10 billion dollars to shore up their finances that will show Russia!!! (

)

**Ray** · 14 Sep 08,, 07:49

The debts will be written off I presume.

**~~bengalraider~~** · 14 Sep 08,, 07:53

ukraine gets oil and gas at highly subsidised prices from the russians, if it joins NATO presumably that subsidy shall be gone. the ordinary ukrainian shall feel the pinch very soon.

**Ray** · 14 Sep 08,, 09:25

The Warsaw Pact countries and the SSR all survived on Soviet assistance. They will still survive - with Western assistance.

Nothing to worry about!

**~~bengalraider~~** · 14 Sep 08,, 10:27

Originally Posted by Ray

The Warsaw Pact countries and the SSR all survived on Soviet assistance. They will still survive - with Western assistance.

Nothing to worry about!

but that's just it sir, with all the clamor over budgetary overruns and a recession economy in the united states for how long can NATO continue to feed the former soviet republics.sooner or later american and european taxpayers are going to want their money invested at home, and not used to shore up some former soviet nation.

**Skywatcher** · 14 Sep 08,, 22:10

Generally speaking, NATO subsidies to Ukraine would immediately draw the ire of the ethnic Russians.

**cyppok** · 15 Sep 08,, 00:26

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

Generally speaking, NATO subsidies to Ukraine would immediately draw the ire of the ethnic Russians.

not really. Subsidies would be welcome, admission to Nato would upset people.
Everyone loves money

**~~Spork55~~** · 15 Sep 08,, 03:47

Originally Posted by cyppok

not really. Subsidies would be welcome, admission to Nato would upset people.
Everyone loves money

Yea, well. Show me the money. That's what you get for introducing capitalism

**Garry** · 15 Sep 08,, 13:08

Originally Posted by snapper

cyppok Sir you say "My guess is France Germany and Benelux will shift out of NATO and move the money.". Well moving money out means EU not NATO and Benelux was only ever an ecomonic community.

Benelux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact is that a common defence is cheaper for Europe - particularly when the US is a partner. For the central European countries to withdraw from NATO would make neither economic nor military sense.

I am in full support here. Europeans spend tiny fraction of their GDP on defense thanks to the support by USA.... if this support is gone they would have to spend at least 2-3% of GDP on defense => it is in their best interest to continue enjoying protection from USA

**Mercenary** · 16 Sep 08,, 05:32

Originally Posted by Garry

I am in full support here. Europeans spend tiny fraction of their GDP on defense thanks to the support by USA

Being dependent on a foreign country for your protection, no matter how friendly they are ..isn't a great situation to be in..unless the country is really too small to defend itself..

**Garry** · 16 Sep 08,, 14:07

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Being dependent on a foreign country for your protection, no matter how friendly they are ..isn't a great situation to be in..unless the country is really too small to defend itself..

Probably, but alternative would cost Europe at least 1.5% of GDP.... if not more than 2.5%. Their spendings will have to go up around 2 or 2.5 times annually to sustain bigger armies.

I do not speak about significant amounts required to acquire hardware which is now in low numbers - aircraft, tanks, SAMs, ships, subs, Cruise missiles, etc... and to build many new bases.....

Europe is relying on USA for few decades.... if it has to reconsider this I can not see how it is possible without HUGE economy restructuring

**~~bengalraider~~** · 16 Sep 08,, 18:07

BBC NEWS
Ukraine's government falls apart

Ukraine's ruling pro-Western coalition has officially collapsed, the speaker of the Ukrainian parliament says.

President Viktor Yushchenko has been involved in a long-running dispute with Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko.

The president's Our Ukraine bloc left the coalition earlier this month. Parliament now has 30 days to try to form a new ruling coalition.

If those efforts fail, Mr Yushchenko can dissolve parliament and call a snap election.

The Our Ukraine party pulled out of the coalition on 3 September after the Tymoshenko Bloc sided with the pro-Moscow opposition Party of Regions to pass several laws that Mr Yushchenko saw as a threat to his presidential powers.

"I officially declare the coalition of democratic forces... in Ukraine's parliament dissolved," parliament speaker Arseny Yatsenyuk announced on Tuesday.

"This has been long expected, but for me it is extremely sad," he told the chamber.

"I would not call this a political apocalypse, though it is true that it is another challenge of democracy. I hope we can overcome it."

Presidential vote

Mr Yushchenko and Ms Tymoshenko led the 2004 Orange Revolution, which overturned the fraudulent presidential election victory of a pro-Moscow candidate, Viktor Yanukovych. But since then the two former allies have become bitter rivals, vying for power ahead of the 2010 presidential election.

Ms Tymoshenko leads the second largest group in the 450-seat assembly, after Mr Yanukovych's Party of the Regions.

Ms Tymoshenko dismissed the breakdown as "a storm in a teacup".

"Let me assure you that the government is going to work for a long time and successfully too, regardless of these storms," she said.

Opposition leader Mr Yanukovych said any new coalition should include his Party of the Regions.

"Any configuration leaving out the country's biggest political forces is doomed to fail," he said.

Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Ukraine's government falls apart

Published: 2008/09/16 12:42:20 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

i think a pro-russian govt shall come to power now.

**Ray** · 16 Sep 08,, 19:09

I don't think a pro Russian govt will come to power.

It might be a no win!

Thread: Russia warns Ukraine it will retaliate over Nato

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display

Orange Revolution Is Over

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

Similar Threads

Analysis: Chechnya

Russia disappoints the world

Russia on the march - again

Georgian NATO membership

For global security increase the NATO

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions