Thread: GEORGIA AN EXAMPLE !!! The BEAR is out of HIBERNATION

brokeraz has a neo-fascist nationalist Russian agenda. Conspiratorial nat'l strategic policy objectives vis-a-vis Russia conceived and implemented behind closed doors. The hidden hand at work again.

Zraver nailed it. Advancing RIGHT to the borders of Russia on ALL fronts would still not constitute ANY threat to their nat'l survival. None for a myriad of all-too-obvious reasons- foremost a sh!tload of quite capable ICBMs. Secondly, a DAMNED large and still (and becoming more so) modern and capable conventional force. No marches to Moscow on anybody's visible horizon. Gin-clear to most rational humans.

Intimidation of Russia by Estonia or Lithuania because they'd like and might exercise the right to say "NO" without regard to Moscow's desires? Heaven forbid. Far less about casting their lot with the west than finding shelter from the storm.

Give me a call the day Latvians agitate and subvert Russia to instability under NATO's umbrella. Not before. Meanwhile I patiently await that definitive declaration of America's intent to roll up the bear once n' for all.

Thanks for the nice words, fellas, but unnecessary. This bozo's got the look of death all over him. Right now, he's a worthless waste of anybody's time.

Originally Posted by Garry

Nobody tried anything....

Sir, do you think an air strike (couple of KAB-500) could have blocked the tonnel for a couple of days?

Garry,
Both sides of the Roki tunnel lies in Russian administered area.
A conventional strike in any manner, using either Artillery or Air Strike could no doubt damage the tunnel, but thanks to the engineers, it would get operational within 12-24 hours flat.
The only thing that the Georgian Army could do was to seize the tunnels south end with a paratroop operation, thereby delaying if not halting the Russian Armour, which they didn't do for whatever reasons. Inmy opinion however, it would have been a readymade give away and would surely have been answered with a more bloody response from the Russian 58th Army.

"...but thanks to the engineers, it would get operational within 12-24 hours flat."

In a war with a decided under-dog every advantage, including time, must be seized. One-half to a full day could be decisive when guys are negotiating cease-fires.

"The only thing that the Georgian Army could do was to seize the tunnels south end with a paratroop operation, thereby delaying if not halting the Russian Armour..."

Don't know if they've an airborne or air-assault capability in brigade size. If so and if the only way in is through this tunnel, I've got to believe THAT would have been a HELL of a fight!

The Georgians could have enhanced themselves considerably. This was a poorly-conceived military operation particularly given Russia's preparedness and eagerness to go.

In a war with a decided under-dog every advantage, including time, must be seized. One-half to a full day could be decisive when guys are negotiating cease-fires

.
True, however I was commenting upon the possibility of a renovation.

Don't know if they've an airborne or air-assault capability in brigade size. If so and if the only way in is through this tunnel, I've got to believe THAT would have been a HELL of a fight!

The tunnel is a key strategic choke point. And yes, I don't deny that it would have been a HELL of a fight. Don't know whether the Georgian Army was capable of it or not.

The Georgians could have enhanced themselves considerably. This was a poorly-conceived military operation particularly given Russia's preparedness and eagerness to go.

Absolutely.
If I may say so, the entire mission was a f^cked up one, militarily speaking.
They didn't even plan for mission backup and contingency management.

Between Georgia and South Ossetia the peace-keepers were situated that divided the opposite sides. The peace-keepers were situated there according to the peace agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia.
To attack Tskhinval the Georgians first killed the peace-keepers. So, the peace-keepers were killed because they did their job.
After the Georgians killed the peace-keepers they attacked the Ossetians. To attack the Ossetians they needed to go through several Ossetian villages. The Georgian army destroyed these villages with all civilians.
The capital of South Ossetia was attacked with heavy weapons such as MLRS. The houses of local residents were bombed from air, shelled with artillery, missiles, tanks, mortars, grenades. As a result the town was badly damaged and a lot of people were killed for the first hours of attack.

When Russia found out that the Georgians:

- killed our peace-keepers;
- broke the peace agreement;
- wiped out the several villages;
- started destroying the town of Tskhinval including all population;

then Russia had to send troops in the region to stop the aggression and extermination of Ossetian population.

That's all about it.

This is an example for any who will ever try to kill our people.

"This is an example for any who will ever try to kill our people."

Example of something, that's for sure. Righteous vengeance I'm not as certain. Maybe an example of a replicable blueprint for more of the same elsewhere.

Seems like you've got the story really nailed down solid though. Congratulations.

Originally Posted by Deltacamelately

.
True, however I was commenting upon the possibility of a renovation.


The tunnel is a key strategic choke point. And yes, I don't deny that it would have been a HELL of a fight. Don't know whether the Georgian Army was capable of it or not.

Absolutely.
If I may say so, the entire mission was a f^cked up one, militarily speaking.
They didn't even plan for mission backup and contingency management.

The question as to repair of the tunnel we must leave unanswered surely as no attempt was made to block it (as far as I know). This was the breach into which every Gorgian soldier should have been thrown "Once more into the breach dear friends, once more, or close the wall up with our (Georgian) dead" (Shakespeare).

The whole Georgian operation (if they indeed started it) was a disaster. The question remains as to why Russia has responded in such a diproprtionate manner. The Georgians never touched Russian sovereign territory yet there are Russian troops in Georgia.

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Between Georgia and South Ossetia the peace-keepers were situated that divided the opposite sides. The peace-keepers were situated there according to the peace agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia.
To attack Tskhinval the Georgians first killed the peace-keepers. So, the peace-keepers were killed because they did their job.
After the Georgians killed the peace-keepers they attacked the Ossetians. To attack the Ossetians they needed to go through several Ossetian villages. The Georgian army destroyed these villages with all civilians.
The capital of South Ossetia was attacked with heavy weapons such as MLRS. The houses of local residents were bombed from air, shelled with artillery, missiles, tanks, mortars, grenades. As a result the town was badly damaged and a lot of people were killed for the first hours of attack.

When Russia found out that the Georgians:

- killed our peace-keepers;
- broke the peace agreement;
- wiped out the several villages;
- started destroying the town of Tskhinval including all population;

then Russia had to send troops in the region to stop the aggression and extermination of Ossetian population.

That's all about it.

This is an example for any who will ever try to kill our people.

Well Sir your "peacekeeping" failed. As to why Russia should regard itself as a suitable 'peacekeeper' in the region where was already having serious disagreements with Georgia surely if they had indeed been there for peace they should have got out. The idea of NATO peacekeepers there would no doubt be viewed as an infrigement toward Russia - why then did the Russians keep peacekeepers in an area where Russian 'peacekeepers' are evidently not unbiased? I thought the nature of peacekeepers was to be neutral?

"then Russia had to send troops in the region to stop the aggression and extermination of Ossetian population." How many South Ossetians reside in Georgia?

"This is an example for any who will ever try to kill our people." Best you all stay at home! I would hate to cause a war for accidentaly running one of you over!

The truth is that Georgia never attacked Russia nor had the means to harm her. Undoubtedly what the Goergians did was a. foolish and b. badly done but if Russia saw this a real threat then paranoia is rife there - you cannot believe that they intended to invade Russia surely? The Georgian actions in South Ossetia were not wise but a flee cannot seriously harm an elephant.

[QUOTE=Ray;535776]Really?

[B][QUOTE]

Originally Posted by zraver

Enjoyable hyperboles! Second biggest event in human history! If hyperboles alone converted issues as truism, then it would be quite a maze to wade through!

So which is it? Do only the big nations count, or do the little ones matter to? Your trying to play both sides of the fence, declaring the US of beign unilateralist and then ignoring evidence it is not.

While there are many reasons for people to like the USA, yet this condescension and talking down others is what gets the goat and all the good work done gets washed off.

Look in a mirror, you stick your nose any higher in the air and you'll drown if it rains.

Since you feel that the US funds the world, it may well be so. But, lets not grandstand. It is all quid pro quo! If you want to be the "leader" of the world, you have to "buy" that leadership! As the Americans themselves say - there is nothing called a Free Lunch!!

I did not say the US funds the world, I said the US funds the UN. And unfortunately for my tax dollars it is a free lunch. If dues paid equaled influence my country would be in a much stronger position. But it doesn't so we are not.

If you did not "buy" your leadership, then Russia, China or the UK could might as well lead. They are not inferior in any way, except that they are not so free with their cash!! And to use another quaint Americanism - Money speaks!

Now thats funny, until recently they had no cash to spend. But now that they do look how they are spending it.

It is not that the US aid does not come without strings attached - a reverse of the earlier example of There is nothing called a Free Lunch.

A lot of US aid mdoes have strings, but a lot does not.

Yes, Russia lashes out at Georgia, but less blatantly and with more rationale, than US lashing out in Iraq, Panama, Grenada, the Bay of Pigs etc etc!

Less blatantly, wth are you talking about? So far we have seen the Russians use BM-21 Grad, TU-22m3, SS-21, T-80 MBT, spetznaz, air assaulkt formations, local guerrilla forces, heavy missile cruisers, attack helos, and they have engaged in infrastructure destruction. This operation is at least as big as the Panama invasion and for far less just reasons. Panama declared war on the US, and then acted on that declaration. The US was asked to intervene in Grenada after a coup, the bay of Pigs was a CIA ops and the president pulled the plug on it.

Could it be a case of the Pot calling the Kettle Black?

Not at all, at the end of the day, the US left while Russia is going to annex parts of Georgia.

Pragmatically speaking, humanitarian aid is all that the US can do under the circumstances. Anything beyond would cause a world war or at least, a US - Russia war! George Bush or Cheney have not imbibed any dull opiate and Letheward has sunk! (Spanner - Ode to the Nightingale - Keats!).

See Ray thats where your wrong, humanitarian aid or not the mighty Russian military had to stand aside lest they risk war with the US. Russia is the one who was forced to stand aside.

With that Humanitarian aid, intelligence people will also find berth. To believe otherwise, is being naive!

Demanded?!

I love that!

Smacks of hyperbole and arrogance - the very sentiment that puts off others, including those who are otherwise US friendly!

What demanded? And if they said no, would you go to war? Let's not fool the people with hyperbole!

We'll never know Moscow decide not to call that bluff.

The US as far as Georgia is concerned is in the same boat as is Russia and the ABMs in Poland. Seething with impotent anger and unable to do a damn!

If you really think the US/EU/NATO is impotent your might want to get your head checked. Not all response require a hammer, but if the result is the same its the same. Russia will lose far more long term than she will gain because the West did not roll over an accept it. At the very least Russia has sparked a new arms race which against the combined economies arrayed agaisnt her she is not in a position to win.

When one wants to grandstand and talk about charity and money they spread around and all should love them and kiss their feet, as you wish to impress on us, then we would love to have honest brokers and not snake oil salesmen (another American phrase)!

And you talk about hyperbole, An American could walk up to you give you a million dollars and walk away and you would not trust it. You don't like my country-fine you not required to. But your ceaseless unsupported or just plain wrong assertions show a disrespect to the boards American members.

While we appreciate and like the US, if their spokesperson wishes to grandstand on morality, we sure wish that they (the US and their spokesmen) too display some morality! I could be more illustrative and scathing, but I do like the US and I have Americans as friends here and I know this hurts! It is arrogant Americans like you, who feel that we should grovel and kiss the dirt you tread, get the goat out of us!! You say what I said is crap? See what you are spreading as if you were the Second Coming of Christ! Please don't make those who like the US be revolted with such brash arrogance. I like the US, but I also know that the US has feet of clay as every other country in the world!! It is silly of anyone to feel that one has to be blind!

Ray, go f&ck yourself, you can't stand America and refuse to back up your assertions with anything other than tin hat worthy diatribes. You call me arrogant as you act like you sit in judgment of my country. You are the height of arrogance. I've never expected anyone to grovel and kiss my country's feet.

Unlike you, I have few biases.

I am a pragmatist and not from the "My country, right or wrong" club. I have seen death and destruction and not a theoretical person as some. I am not impressed by the use of force to enforce one's will. I would rather it be honestly used as the last resort.

You are one of the most biased people I have ever come across.

If you have seen a war, you would understand!

Russia is no bed of roses.

Neither is any other country, including India.

They have agendas!

If you could get past your biases you would understand. But you won't, you revel in them like a pig in a mudhole wallowing around.

Originally Posted by S-2

brokeraz has a neo-fascist nationalist Russian agenda. Conspiratorial nat'l strategic policy objectives vis-a-vis Russia conceived and implemented behind closed doors. The hidden hand at work again.

Zraver nailed it. Advancing RIGHT to the borders of Russia on ALL fronts would still not constitute ANY threat to their nat'l survival. None for a myriad of all-too-obvious reasons- foremost a sh!tload of quite capable ICBMs. Secondly, a DAMNED large and still (and becoming more so) modern and capable conventional force. No marches to Moscow on anybody's visible horizon. Gin-clear to most rational humans.

Intimidation of Russia by Estonia or Lithuania because they'd like and might exercise the right to say "NO" without regard to Moscow's desires? Heaven forbid. Far less about casting their lot with the west than finding shelter from the storm.

Give me a call the day Latvians agitate and subvert Russia to instability under NATO's umbrella. Not before. Meanwhile I patiently await that definitive declaration of America's intent to roll up the bear once n' for all.

Thanks for the nice words, fellas, but unnecessary. This bozo's got the look of death all over him. Right now, he's a worthless waste of anybody's time.

"Neo-facist bozo" - wow :/. I guess I really got to you, though it's not my intent. You're a grown up, you'll get over it.

As far as the document you've referred to, it's primarily a source of guidance for 'middle-management'. What actually occurs may be a different story.

"Meanwhile I patiently await that definitive declaration of America's intent to roll up the bear once n' for all." - I don't think it will be neatly laid out for you in some periodical. I sense a bias in placing too much weight into an academian circle-j*rk.

Will you or will you not provide support to your position?

Zraver,

You are indeed an amusing sort of a fellow.

A great interlude for relief in a serious discussion!

But for you, life would not be the same.

So which is it? Do only the big nations count, or do the little ones matter to? Your trying to play both sides of the fence, declaring the US of beign unilateralist and then ignoring evidence it is not.

Evidence it is not?

I hope you had your reading glasses when you read my posts!

Look in a mirror, you stick your nose any higher in the air and you'll drown if it rains.

I am sure you believe that in part of my world we have no mirrors! We go to the village pond to see the reflection, right? Can you answer to the point, which you can't since you have no leg to stand on. Cut the glib smart Aleck stuff!

I did not say the US funds the world, I said the US funds the UN. And unfortunately for my tax dollars it is a free lunch. If dues paid equaled influence my country would be in a much stronger position. But it doesn't so we are not.

Please read your words:

We fund the majority of the UN, give the most aid and charity belong to numerous intyernational treaties

I agree that English is not my mother tongue, so what does the above mean? To me it looks like you are claiming to be Atlas, the primordial Titan who supported the heavens!!

Now thats funny, until recently they had no cash to spend. But now that they do look how they are spending it.

You grudge that of the UK, Russia and China?

The issue of debate here was you condescension that the US spread its money around and all are ungrateful wretches.

I said it is quid pro quo.

I said if you want to be a "leader of the world", you have to "buy" that leadership since there are many other contenders to the Throne!

A lot of US aid mdoes have strings, but a lot does not.

That is your impression. Ask those who get that aid.

Less blatantly, wth are you talking about? So far we have seen the Russians use BM-21 Grad, TU-22m3, SS-21, T-80 MBT, spetznaz, air assaulkt formations, local guerrilla forces, heavy missile cruisers, attack helos, and they have engaged in infrastructure destruction. This operation is at least as big as the Panama invasion and for far less just reasons. Panama declared war on the US, and then acted on that declaration. The US was asked to intervene in Grenada after a coup, the bay of Pigs was a CIA ops and the president pulled the plug on it.

Please let us not delude ourselves.

All those operations by the US was in its national interests. Please also do a comparative study of the US might vs these tiny nations, if indeed they were nations of worth! So the Bay of Pigs is a CIA ops and the US President was hibernating!! Let's get real. If the CIA was such a power by itself, then why blame the ISI in Pakistan? You seem to be the type who wants to have his cake and eat it too!! Not cricket, old boy!

Not at all, at the end of the day, the US left while Russia is going to annex parts of Georgia.

US left and went where?

What are you talking about?

See Ray thats where your wrong, humanitarian aid or not the mighty Russian military had to stand aside lest they risk war with the US. Russia is the one who was forced to stand aside.

I enjoy your self delusion!

Russia standing aside!

They have ensured a buffer zone and has gone deeper into Georgia than before! That is standing aside? They have not left Poti. That is standing aside?

Funny way to "stand aside"!

And they are smelling of roses since they are "withdrawing". Some withdrawal indeed!

With that Humanitarian aid, intelligence people will also find berth. To believe otherwise, is being naive!

Demanded?!

I love that!

Smacks of hyperbole and arrogance - the very sentiment that puts off others, including those who are otherwise US friendly!

No riposte from your side to my comments above?

We'll never know Moscow decide not to call that bluff.

RRRRRRRiiiiiiiiight!

If you really think the US/EU/NATO is impotent your might want to get your head checked. Not all response require a hammer, but if the result is the same its the same. Russia will lose far more long term than she will gain because the West did not roll over an accept it. At the very least Russia has sparked a new arms race which against the combined economies arrayed agaisnt her she is not in a position to win.

How sweet and ever so clever.

The US has always used a hammer and now it is kid gloves!!

How can you justified with such glib tripe with what Glyn says - a mouthful of teeth!

Russia does not appear to be losing. Poland has scampered for US and not NATO protection, Ukraine is quivering and so on!

Saw how Sakarlozy and Merkel ran?

Losing?

You are a dreamer?

And you talk about hyperbole, An American could walk up to you give you a million dollars and walk away and you would not trust it. You don't like my country-fine you not required to. But your ceaseless unsupported or just plain wrong assertions show a disrespect to the boards American members.

I like the Americans and make no mistake about that.

I dislike arrogant and ignorant Americans that you typify who feel that others are sub human and have no self respect and should kowtow to such mortals as you! Why, because you delude yourself as Atlas, without realising that we also serve who stand and wait!

Are you suggesting that just because Americans run the forum, there will be no honest discussion that might not be in favour of Americans like you?

If truth and facts are to be suppressed to use this forum as a showcase for the USA, then why are you such a champion in criticising China? You have gone ballistics of the Chinese gymnast's age just because they are winning hands down?

I am possibly the harshest critics of CCP and Communist China, but even so, I don't run away from the truth! I have congratulated them for their dazzling performance and yet, I am sure this will be a wake up call for the USA! You said that a military man cannot want level playing field. Sorry, take me to be the exception. I appreciate where appreciation is due and am not blind as a bat with false loyalty!

I show immense respect to those who run the board and the freedom that they allow in allowing people like you or me is what makes the USA great!

Ray, go f&ck yourself, you can't stand America and refuse to back up your assertions with anything other than tin hat worthy diatribes. You call me arrogant as you act like you sit in judgment of my country. You are the height of arrogance. I've never expected anyone to grovel and kiss my country's feet.

I would have f&cked myself. But physically that is not feasible for normal human beings, but then knowing your perseverance for the impossible, I am sure you are in both Riply's Believe it or Not and in the Guiness Book of Records.

Your post indicates your misplaced arrogance and ignorance of the world at large!

You are one of the most biased people I have ever come across.

If you could get past your biases you would understand. But you won't, you revel in them like a pig in a mudhole wallowing around.

If you think I am a pig so be it.

I won't stoop to your level that deserves total contempt since it indicates the absence of upbringing!

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Will you or will you not provide support to your position?

Yes. My position is that there's a relentless and steady trend to block off Russia which has been going on ever since an opportunity came up (1991).

Expansion of NATO right upto Russian borders, plans for military installations which directly challenge Russian security, arms and training to Georgia, and just general support in the region to whomever has the potential to come to a position of power and is anti-Moscow.

The discussion does not really concern me but ...

I consider both Brig Ray and Mister Zraver, to be two of the few - most unbiased people in this board, ever. ... and I am speaking from the position of neutrallity.

There is no need to fight. It brings the worse out of people.

Regards to both

Originally Posted by brokeraz

Yes. My position is that there's a relentless and steady trend to block off Russia which has been going on ever since an opportunity came up (1991).

Then, how is the Middle East the primary American focus based upon what you've just wrote?