Thread: GEORGIA AN EXAMPLE !!! The BEAR is out of HIBERNATION

"What it does is destabilize the region with the policy "expectation" that this will create internal turmoil and keep Russia down."

Whose "policy 'expectation'"? Lithuania? Latvia? Estonia? Ukraine? America?

This demands support. Where are the official nat'l policy papers and leader comments that confirm this objective? I rather question your chances of proof. Few anywhere wish for a failed Russia.

Originally Posted by S-2

"What it does is destabilize the region with the policy "expectation" that this will create internal turmoil and keep Russia down."

Whose "policy 'expectation'"? Lithuania? Latvia? Estonia? Ukraine? America?

This demands support. Where are the official nat'l policy papers and leader comments that confirm this objective? I rather question your chances of proof. Few anywhere wish for a failed Russia.

U.S. policy expectation. Support is a matter of observation - if your house is on fire empirical evidence will do. Of course there's no "official" doctrine documents that state "russia must be kept down". Failed Russia is dangerous, a controlled Russia is the goal (in the opinion of this poster). Hence the rhetoric of "Russian dominance" and "empire expansion" (domino theory, invasion of afganistan == prelude to taking saudi oil fields etc. go in the same bucket).

I think most of us don't give a hoot what our neighbors do as long as they don't present a security threat/challenge. Intent to join NATO and building up military capability is exactly that. "Freedom" has little to do with it, Taliban wanted to be free as well.

Originally Posted by zraver

They have a right to be free of Russian domination if thats what they choose.

In your mind, what does "Russian domination" mean exactly as applied to Ukraine and Georgia?

Originally Posted by brokeraz

In your mind, what does "Russian domination" mean exactly as applied to Ukraine and Georgia?

In the case of Estonia, taking down statues erected by the Red Army to itself after they kicked the Germans out of Estonia and re-occoupied the tiny nation. Or itrchign that Estonia wants Estonian to be the national language. In Russia I think handing out passports and then not requiring emigration is one, arming separatist rebels would be another.

U.S. policy expectation. Support is a matter of observation - if your house is on fire empirical evidence will do. Of course there's no "official" doctrine documents that state "russia must be kept down". Failed Russia is dangerous, a controlled Russia is the goal (in the opinion of this poster). Hence the rhetoric of "Russian dominance" and "empire expansion" (domino theory, invasion of afganistan == prelude to taking saudi oil fields etc. go in the same bucket).

I say Russia is rebuilding her empire, and i've said she was going to. I am not part of the US government, I simply watch what Russia is doing.

I think most of us don't give a hoot what our neighbors do as long as they don't present a security threat/challenge. Intent to join NATO and building up military capability is exactly that. "Freedom" has little to do with it, Taliban wanted to be free as well.

Russia is stronger than all of her neighbors combined. This means she can invade any one of them and hold the rest off. That is a threat individually and collectively to all of Russia's neighbors. Yet when they try and even the playing field so Russia cannot take them down without weakening herself they are a threat? Get real the only one who is invading is Russia.

Originally Posted by zraver

In the case of Estonia, taking down statues erected by the Red Army to itself after they kicked the Germans out of Estonia and re-occoupied the tiny nation. Or itrchign that Estonia wants Estonian to be the national language. In Russia I think handing out passports and then not requiring emigration is one, arming separatist rebels would be another.

Estonian ritualistic rearrangement is symbolical chicken *s really, the issue is NATO membership that's what bugs Russia. Passport issue is one of free will if a given SOetian doesn't want one - no problem. If Russia was serious about "arming" the rebels they could've done far more then they have. U.S. arming/training (pretty much for free) Georgia is a good example and has more gravity than passport issue.

Originally Posted by zraver

I say Russia is rebuilding her empire, and i've said she was going to. I am not part of the US government, I simply watch what Russia is doing.

What does that mean? Establishing colonial rule over her neighbours? Or building up the economy and bringing the military up to subpar-international standards (Russia's defense spending vs. NATO's top players)?

Originally Posted by zraver

Russia is stronger than all of her neighbors combined. This means she can invade any one of them and hold the rest off. That is a threat individually and collectively to all of Russia's neighbors. Yet when they try and even the playing field so Russia cannot take them down without weakening herself they are a threat? Get real the only one who is invading is Russia.

I think this is a big picture sort of issue, Russia isn't worried about Estonian soldiers directing traffic in Moscow. However, NATO isn't a social club and it's expansion to Russian borders must be taken extremely seriously. Imagine Warshaw pact taking in Cuba and announcing U.S. has nothing to worry about. Status quo can be a very good thing but it would mean less jobs for the State dept.

I read the whole thing this is by far one of the best articles on the issue.

David Bromwich: Georgia and the Push for Cold War

It appears the message is Please Cooperate. Lets together build a new world order - do it MY way!

Originally Posted by cyppok

I read the whole thing this is by far one of the best articles on the issue.

David Bromwich: Georgia and the Push for Cold War

Bottom line: U.S. is at the crossroads - there's a finite amount influence and resources to go around. Middle East is far more important in the next few decades. There are politicians striving for power and influence to get them to the top around Russia's borders - the best card they have is "we are seeking help of the U.S., vote for us." Once that is accomplished they do what they want to line their pockets. You'd think this happened too many times for the White House to know better. It does come out of our paychecks nonetheless.

The goverments of Baltics have responsibility to their nations to stand for the indepenndance of the countrys. The only way to do it is to integrate with West, therefore the EU and NATO. BTW, NATO is seen at least as important as EU, in public opinion polls NATO has constantly got higher public support than EU.
The only realistic threat to our independance was, is and will be Russia, be under whatever their current name/polity is. Each country has the obligation to it´s people to defend itself by their own forces and politics. Therefore the NATO-membership as the only working policy in this region. Russia might not like it, but we are interested in security. There is nothing else in this region that could provide it. And after Georgian events support to NATO will rise even higher.

According to our (Est.) official defence strategy, the most important current threat is in Russia, and not Russia - the Chernobyl-type nuclear power plant near St.Petersburg

Originally Posted by braindead

The goverments of Baltics have responsibility to their nations to stand for the indepenndance of the countrys. The only way to do it is to integrate with West, therefore the EU and NATO. BTW, NATO is seen at least as important as EU, in public opinion polls NATO has constantly got higher public support than EU.
The only realistic threat to our independance was, is and will be Russia, be under whatever their current name/polity is. Each country has the obligation to it´s people to defend itself by their own forces and politics. Therefore the NATO-membership as the only working policy in this region. Russia might not like it, but we are interested in security. There is nothing else in this region that could provide it. And after Georgian events support to NATO will rise even higher.

According to our (Est.) official defence strategy, the most important current threat is in Russia, and not Russia - the Chernobyl-type nuclear power plant near St.Petersburg

How is Russia trying to take away your independence exactly?