Thread: GEORGIA AN EXAMPLE !!! The BEAR is out of HIBERNATION

Gentlemen,

There's an IGNORE button. Kindly use it if you don't want to read any of the posters.

Originally Posted by zraver

In so far as you are concerned, I am very biased against Russia. History if nothing else predicts the reformation of the Russian empire and current events and attitudes support this. If Russia really recognized her neighbors rights to freedom she would not care who they wanted to partner with. But if those neighbors make a move that lessens Russia's ability to impose her will on them- Russia calls it a threat.

History predicts nothing. Or else you are in the self fulfilling prophecy.

Europeans would still be fighting each other if History meant anything.

There're good odds that Russia will re emerge peacefully without necessarily threatening the near abroad. If it does the Russians will assume the consequences but I repeat, no self fulfilling prophecy. History in making is, by definition, not in the books.

Originally Posted by MrFirst

In respect of Zraver this is the funniest thing I've ever heard here.

Zraver - unbiased person! Ha-ha!!!
This is a joke, yes?..

Two points ...

Not really, being something [bias or unbias] is never in absolute terms, but always in relative to others. Something usefull I learned from Albert Eienstein.

One. To say that someone is unbiased or biased, you must reference it against the proper benchmark, which is the forum average. And I happen to believe that the forum average is heavilly biased and retarded (on various diverging subjects), except for a few people.

Two. Two people may not see eye to eye on a given day, because of their different opinions on a subject. But one should take a look at the overall biasness of all historical posts made by those members.

These are criterea upon which I have made my remarks, and stand by those remarks, I will.

Look at this movie about how the Georgian troops are restoring the "constitutional order" in Tskhinval.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=3oqiSOPijiU

The Georgian tank rolls along the street of Tskhinval. A vehicle follows behind. We do not see the occupants of vehicle but we can hear their voices and the sounds of shooting.
The voice is shouting in-Georgian : "Save the ammo! Choose the object and shoot 2-3 times!Shoot at the roofs, burn the houses!"
In the meantime we do not see any people in the street - either armed or disarmed. No people in the street. Noone fires at the Georgians in the vehicle. No battle between these Georgians and any other people in the street. Just Georgian tank and Georgian soldiers in the moving vehicle, and they are burning the houses in Tskhinval.

Originally Posted by brokeraz

I don't see a reason why US can't attempt to do both. As far as priority ranking goes I'd say Middle East is more important. I'm not sure what you're trying to say as far as my "conspiracy theory" though.

Those are your words, not mine.

The point remains that US policies have been clearly spelled out in congressional reports. Those reports have been analyzed by those whose job is to analyzed those things. Russia has think tanks who does nothing but doing these things.

Thus far, your position is lacking support. You have absolutely no evidence that American policy is now Middle East centric.

Originally Posted by Oscar

History predicts nothing. Or else you are in the self fulfilling prophecy.

Europeans would still be fighting each other if History meant anything.

There're good odds that Russia will re emerge peacefully without necessarily threatening the near abroad. If it does the Russians will assume the consequences but I repeat, no self fulfilling prophecy. History in making is, by definition, not in the books.

Russia started as a city state in of all places the Ukraine. Now it is by far the largest nation in terms of landmass. In practical effect Russia expanded on average 1000 miles every 100 years. While many of the most recent and some long time conquests were cast off in 1992. Recent developments and actions by Russia show that expansion is occurring again. call it what ever you want, but Russia is going to annex SO and Abkhazia. They have threatened their neighbors for taking actions to protect themselves from Russia or even because they asserted their own national identity.

History is in the making, but its general direction is shaped by people shaped by their history.

leaving all aside the emerging pro united states tilt of Ukraine is very interesting to watch, if Ukraine does go ahead and join NATO it has serious implications for Ukraine proper as a nation . most of eastern Ukraine is solidly pro-Russia( upto 46% of ukraines population) and anti united states similarly most off western Ukraine is just the opposite , even the famous orange revolution received little or no support from eastern Ukrainian provinces, if eastern Ukraine revolts on joining NATO and Russia intervenes with live video coverage of cheering crowds welcoming the Russians Ala Sudetenland in 1939 what can NATO do?

as it is most of the world other than the united states and other NATO nations have not come out overwhelmingly against the war in Georgia.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by zraver

20/20 vision

Nothing concrete to add, but glib gobbledygooks?

Nice now you call me a racist, where did I ever imply that India was in any way backwards?

Racist?

You have to be a superior race to claim that dubious distinction.

Unlike you, in India we call a spade a spade and not mouth meaningless PC words for public consumption and yet have the same racial arrogance within!!

it means what it says, the US funds the UN and gives the most charity. If we only about enriching ourselves that would not be the case.

Stop weaseling!

You are enriching - goodwill and shutting out dissent as you are trying with me!

no i don't, you brought it up.

I did rhetorically wondering and you concurred that they have no hope in hell!

Where did I ever imply the wordl was ungrateful?

If only you read what you write you would have understood. Your arrogance blinds you! Please note, I have picked cotton!

And your still wrong. If it was quid pro quo then the US should ahve far more influence in the UN than its does. That the UN so often sides against US interests and yet the US still funds it should say something if you take your blinders off.

It has more influence though not your way - uber alles! Can't say Seig Heil these days. Politically suicidal, no matter how much you would want it to be so!

Take your funds away. Try it and you will be as important as a banana republic! You are doing no favour to anyone. You are doing yourself a favour. Understand that!

You assume the US wants to rule the world.

Do you have a doubt?

I think you don't read. Read Cheney DPG and his National Engender Policy! Spend sometime reading and understanding rather than grandstanding in a vaccum!

Lets do that, we can ask Thais and people from Indonesia who drank US supplied freshwater after the Tsunami. Or people who got anti-aids drugs in Africa. We can ask them if any strings were attached when the US saved their lives. We can even ask Iranian earthquake victims who were helped by US aid if the US tied strings to them.

You are so naive!

You thought that was due to Christian compassion?

What do you think the US is - Christ?

Equate that in political terms, my boy.

It makes the population beholden to the US and the also their govt!

We reformed the CIA, Pakistan did not reform the ISI.

Indeed you did. The dirty trick dept vanished. The CIA director was named Merlin, right?

You seem to have no clue about how countries function!

With the exception of Gitmo, there are zero US troops anywhere in the world where the legal government does not wish them there.

NO Gitmo is all about Freedom and Democracy!

What the impacts that follow from this war.

You should know. You claim to be the Smart Pants!

No need to comment on it, intelligence officers may very well be part of it, or they may not.

It again shows what a greenhorn you are and what pretensions you portray!

What can Russia do to Poland now without inviting war by the US? If the Ukraine joins then what. What if Belarus begins to form a new NAM to be free of Russia?

Just my point.

They stand as impotent as the US in Georgia!

no you don't.

You are right. I don't like arrogant toffee nosed. blind and wimpish cry babies, be they Americans or Martians.

You've attached a lot of labels to me, carry to support any of them with something I have actually posted?

I have not attached any labels to you. You cried out aloud for these honours! I don't have to support anything, your posts supports it and saves me the bother!

Red Herring, never said anythign even remotely like that, never implied it either.

Really?

How charming.

I am fed up at refreshing your memory! Do you suffer from Alzheimer? Here is what you said:

But your ceaseless unsupported or just plain wrong assertions show a disrespect to the boards American members.

This board has many non American members.

What is so special about showing "disrespect to the boards American members" unless you mean that American members are uber alles and nio disrespect to them is allowed?!

May I request you to read what you write and not just take off like a misguided SCUD missile?

Your blind, insane and illogical ramblings is making you appear to be comical in relief!

I never called for truth to be suppressed. Secondly I went ape over China cheating, not winning. The Chinese women divers smoked the US divers on pure technique. They didn't need to cheat to win.

Do you want me to put the names of US athletes who have lost out their medals because of doping?

Where was your recent discovered morality and self righteousness then?

maybe not with loyalty, but you are blinded by your bias.

Is your name Mr Purer than the Snow of Mount Etna. Unlike others, you add misplaced arrogance!

Give the world break, dear man!

keep throwing your insults since you lack evidence.

And you manufacture smoke cannisters, right?


You are one of the most biased people I have ever come across.

Ray, I descended to your level, your the one who popped off with the insults.

I posts stand as witness.

True, in your perception, this is an American board and unsavoury statements which are facts is not acceptable and are insults!

I am glad that the wise and fair men of American and WAB has not made you a Moderator or else this would have been no better than S-2's favourite forum! )

Originally Posted by zraver

You are not aware of the fighting that had been going on for most of a week before Aug 8th? The Georgian offensive did not come out of a clear blue sky.

Where and when the Ossetians broke the peace?
Which Georgian city was shelled with MLRS', howitzers, tanks, mortars etc?
Which Georgian city, town, village was captured by Ossetians before August, 8?
Did the Ossetian tanks invade any Georgian village?

Originally Posted by zraver

Since the ships are lightweights its not really massing forces. Russia is simply trying to look tough, they are already being forced to stand by as USAF craft fly into Georgia at will. Thier posturing is for domestic consumption. In the end I think it will backfire on them and they will lose more internationally.

I don't know, there isn't much they could loose internationally at this point from their point of view. Strangling Georgia economically generally does bring the change in leadership generally. In Ukraine it is far more likely that control will shift to a pro-Russian view. The reasons are very simple inemptness of current gov't and if they actually begin to raise military spending like their president recently announced they would either have to a) re-institute the draft which would be a nightmare or b) forage for western aid which would be ok but they would still need to enlarge the armed forces, and the give back for the aid might be burdensome.

I can't see Ukraine joining Nato, sorry just cant envision it. The split in the country is so large that the likelihood of an actual divison of Ukraine in two would be much increased.

Zraver,

Quit being a chuchu!

Originally Posted by Ray

I have supported Iraq, which many, including the Americans, have not supported.

I think (opinion) those Americans that do NOT support the Iraq War in all its glory, are not considered as real Americans by others.

and I also happen to think (opinion) that those who support the Iraq War consider their just cause to be always under siege by other ungrateful nationalities, thereby exploding with lots of emotions whenever the discussion is brought up.

Footnote for other readers: the above is merely an opinion of person

Finally, it is the quality of the posts of the a dozen or so knowledgable people here that brings me here. Not the the heavilly biased opinion of the majority, which btw I stopped fighting and learned to ignore.

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Our peacekeepers were neutral enough. They kept the status quo during the last 16 years and they didn't allow massacres during this time. And I have to repeat - our peacekeeping forces were situated there according the peace agreement between Georgia and Ossetia. Georgia signed this agreement in 1992.
Why the peace was broken?
Because the Georgians attacked Ossetia in the night August, 8. Because the US and other countries armed the Georgian troops and because the US advisers trained them. Because the US always supported Saakashvili and encouraged him against Russia. And this unwise guy thought he is strong enough to implement his butcher's idea. He is mad, I've always told about that.
Nevertheless the peace forcing operation was effective enough as the Georgian troops had left the conflict zone.



The truth is that Georgia has already attacked Russia when the Georgian troops shelled the camp of Russian peace-keepers in Tskhinval in the morning August, 8, and killed 12 of them. That was foolish and that was badly indeed but the fact is that they've done that.

Should I trust your words and do not trust my eyes?

- No, Georgia cannot attack Russia.
- That's incredible.
- This is little country, we are big country, this is impossible.

But then who killed our soldiers?????????

Ummm, forgive me, when did Georgia attack Russia? When was a Georgian soldier on Russian sovereign territory? Need a history book...

I thought South Ossetia was NOT Russia but evidently I am wrong :(

While I recognise that North Ossetia part of the Russian Federation since when was South Ossetia? Please send me a link!

It is akin to Poland contributing peacekeepers to a UN force then invading a country when the ceasefire breaks down. It is by definition risky to be a peacekeeper and one cannot rely on the peace being kept. However one does not normaly call ones native army in to occupy any transgressor of the peace and occupy the transgressor with ones own native army...or should we set some rules for peacekeepers?

No matter what happened and who started what it would seem to me that the job of a 'peacekeeper' is to get out of way when the peace is broken (you have failed) and not to call in his/her national army that then occupies another country. With 'peacekeepers' like this who needs enemies?

Originally Posted by zraver

Not really, I have my biases, but they tend to be based on evidence and history not simply gut feeling or propaganda. I am also quite capable of taking my own country to task. No one is free of bias, but I try not to be blinded by mine.

In so far as you are concerned, I am very biased against Russia. History if nothing else predicts the reformation of the Russian empire and current events and attitudes support this. If Russia really recognized her neighbors rights to freedom she would not care who they wanted to partner with. But if those neighbors make a move that lessens Russia's ability to impose her will on them- Russia calls it a threat. I am also fond of Poland, I have found the Poles to be a wonderful people and if I could visit just one more place and then die it would be the Salt Mine Cathedral in Krakow. So if nothing else, my fondness for Poland prejudices me against Russia. Finally, I am a Cold Warrior. When I enlisted the CW was still on and Soviets were the bad guys.

Dziekie bardzo!