In current Russia-Georgia conflict, who is right?

**Bigfella** · 19 Aug 08, 10:29

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

Human Rights Watch (or who said there were only 44 dead) arrived SO days after ceasefire agreement and more than a week after the war began. Logically thinking, they were mostly buried by that date. Some victims were buried in North Ossetia. Go on, give shovels to HRW activists, let them dig graves. Russian experts worked in the area from the first day of war, examining bodies and asking thousands of refugees. Then HRW arrives, takes the word of one man, interprets it in the way they want to, and says Russians are wrong because they're always wrong. Wonderful indeed.

I am assuming that the HRW figure is low. I imagine that if you asked them they would agree. It is too early for accurate final death tolls. What does stand out, however, is the gap between 44 & 2000. Lets pretend for a moment that HRW are out by a factor of 10 - that would still leave a shortfall of over 1500 from the early figures that the Western media you are so quick to criticize reported to the world.

So, I repeat my question, where are the bodies?

You say they are buried in Sth Ossetia - show us the graves.

You say they are buried in Nth Ossetia - show us the graves.

If you don't want to show HRW, show the media. TV in particular loves a good body story. All those journalist who reported the figures provided by your 'experts' would love to see themselves proven correct.

Get your 'experts' to provide HRW or Amnesty with the details of the people they spoke to. Let them provide details of where they saw the bodies. I'm sure they are not buried too far away (unless the Ossetians carried all the bodies off to Nth Ossetia, of course).

I don't know how many people were killed in the Georgian attack, but I do know that the last people I would trust to tell me the truth about it are employees of Moscow. It should be the easiest thing in the world to back up those early claims, so stop tapdancing around the truth & do it.

**Injecteer** · 19 Aug 08, 10:46

>> but ... the last people I would trust ... are employees of Moscow

So you would rather beleive ppl from Tbilisi or Washington, telling you about 0 civilian caualties in SO, wouldn't you?

I also think that 2000 deads is overestimated, but 44 people killed lays way outside my imagination. I'd say that 400-800 killed civilians are close to reality.

**Bigfella** · 19 Aug 08, 10:52

Originally Posted by Injecteer

>> but ... the last people I would trust ... are employees of Moscow

So you would rather beleive ppl from Tbilisi or Washington, telling you about 0 civilian caualties in SO, wouldn't you?

I also think that 2000 deads is overestimated, but 44 people killed lays way outside my imagination. I'd say that 400-800 killed civilians are close to reality.

No, I would rather believe someone without any vested interest in the outcome. I would rather believe someone open to the scrutiny of a free press in a democratic society. No one acting on behalf of Russia fits this picture.

I would treat any claims from Tblisi with great skepticism. I would also be wary of Washington. As far as I am aware neither of those has claimed 0 casualties.

When the final toll of this conflict is counted it will be independent groups like HRW that the world trusts to provide it, not 'experts' from Moscow.

**Shuriff** · 19 Aug 08, 11:04

Originally Posted by Bigfella

When the final toll of this conflict is counted it will be independent groups like HRW that the world trusts to provide it, not 'experts' from Moscow.

Experts from Moscow are silent about the numbers for now, they are not saying anything at all. And i have to agree, this is suspisious. In the other hand, they just have no culture of public work. They are just not used to working with the media, or HRW or anyone else. Maybe, this will change eventually, but so far that's the way it is.

As for reports from the ground, they are really contradictory. Some say, 1500 is the lowest estimate, some say - 400 is the highest. I suggest we wait for any offical info (without 2 zeroes on the end) on this, preferrably with names list.

**Bigfella** · 19 Aug 08, 11:11

Originally Posted by Shuriff

Experts from Moscow are silent about the numbers for now, they are not saying anything at all. And i have to agree, this is suspisious. In the other hand, they just have no culture of public work. They are just not used to working with the media, or HRW or anyone else. Maybe, this will change eventually, but so far that's the way it is.

As for reports from the ground, they are really contradictory. Some say, 1500 is the lowest estimate, some say - 400 is the highest. I suggest we wait for any offical info (without 2 zeroes on the end) on this, preferrably with names list.

Sounds about right to me Shuriff. Given the relatively small numbers involved & the limited number of potential sites it should be easy to establish a fairly accurate body count - provided those in control of the ground permit it. I will be interested to hear how successfully independent groups are allowed to pursue their inquiries. If there is obstruction then we should all bew suspicious of those doing the obstructing.

In the meantime the supposedly anti-Moscow western media has reported everyone's opinion & left it to us to work out what we think - clearly an evil plot against the motherland.

**Injecteer** · 19 Aug 08, 11:25

btw, what the body-count alone brings to us?
I think we should not concentrate on it that much, well at least unless we get final figures from both sides.
I really think, that for the majority of WAB posters not living in Saakasvilly's despotism

the numbers of casualties are highly abstract and the difference in say 100 or 1000 bodies is negligible.

I also don't think, that in HRW or Green Peace

there are different reactions on 655 deads or 788.

**Shuriff** · 19 Aug 08, 13:26

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Sounds about right to me Shuriff. Given the relatively small numbers involved & the limited number of potential sites it should be easy to establish a fairly accurate body count - provided those in control of the ground permit it. I will be interested to hear how successfully independent groups are allowed to pursue their inquiries. If there is obstruction then we should all bew suspicious of those doing the obstructing.

I wish I was that optimistc about the timeline. Our criminal investigators have a sound reputation of working quite slowly. I've recently read that it took them 2 days to document everything they wanted about only 22 dead Georgian troopers on one site only. If they go on like this with every victim, this is gonna take quite a while.

**zraver** · 19 Aug 08, 15:12

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

Human Rights Watch (or who said there were only 44 dead) arrived SO days after ceasefire agreement and more than a week after the war began. Logically thinking, they were mostly buried by that date. Some victims were buried in North Ossetia. Go on, give shovels to HRW activists, let them dig graves. Russian experts worked in the area from the first day of war, examining bodies and asking thousands of refugees. Then HRW arrives, takes the word of one man, interprets it in the way they want to, and says Russians are wrong because they're always wrong. Wonderful indeed.

It was a SO Doctor in Tsvalli who said they had only seen 44 bodies, of course some of the villages would see more dead, but 2000 is more than a bit steep. Lending further credence to the claims being overblown is the remarkable light damage of Tsvalli as compared to what the Russians said it looked like.

**BFG** · 19 Aug 08, 15:15

Originally Posted by zraver

It was a SO Doctor in Tsvalli who said they had only seen 44 bodies, of course some of the villages would see more dead, but 2000 is more than a bit steep. Lending further credence to the claims being overblown is the remarkable light damage of Tsvalli as compared to what the Russians said it looked like.

As far as I know - by law, 30 bodies is enough to declare genocide. (I'm not sure)

**Ray** · 19 Aug 08, 20:48

I would not believe anyone!

All are snake oil salesmen!

I see it here itself!

**snapper** · 20 Aug 08, 09:55

Saw a report on TV last night of bodies buried in gardens and coal bunkers (2 graves were shown) reportedly killed by SO militia. Think the location was Atskuri but not sure.

**~~brokeraz~~** · 20 Aug 08, 09:57

Originally Posted by zraver

It was a SO Doctor in Tsvalli who said they had only seen 44 bodies, of course some of the villages would see more dead, but 2000 is more than a bit steep. Lending further credence to the claims being overblown is the remarkable light damage of Tsvalli as compared to what the Russians said it looked like.

One doctor is just that - one doctor. "Remarkably light damage" - what do you mean by that exactly?

**Ray** · 20 Aug 08, 09:58

Originally Posted by snapper

Saw a report on TV last night of bodies buried in gardens and coal bunkers (2 graves were shown) reportedly killed by SO militia. Think the location was Atskuri but not sure.

I am sure that Russians are digging up their graves to show the atrocities too!

Sadly for them, the world does not understand Russian. They sure understand English!

Rule Britannia!

**snapper** · 20 Aug 08, 10:38

Then the Russians should learn English!

**Ray** · 20 Aug 08, 10:56

If the Chinese are learning, what stops the Russians?"

Gavaroo pa Englishki!

I am sure that Russians are not so dumb as they want to make them out to be here!

)

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