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Reply With QuoteI am in complete agreement there.Originally Posted by Parihaka
Excellent summary, Garry!
Do you think so? Journalists were there every day. There was even your president some days later on the same spot.
And everything they could find were those 3 buildings? Enough with the bull already.
So far the only thing I've seen from Gori is collateral damage. Not a single bomb purposely dropped on civilian building, not a single building destroyed and burned completely to the ground.
And there is plenty of that footage from Tshinval.
I am in complete agreement there.
Excellent summary, Garry!
Lurker, where are you from? If it is not a secret?:-)
Russia of course.
Sorry, Misha is not my president.
Collateral damage is still damage. Damage that is not shown on television still exists.
If they Russians had not meant to kill all those civilians in Gori -- and the Dutch journalist -- then they are horrible shots. I know many of the villages that were bombed - Oni and Kareli among them -- and struggle to think of anything related to military in them.
Let's not depend on what is shown on television to shape our opinons. Go to the Human Rights Watch site and see what independent observers are reporting about the damage being done to Georgian villages.
Conflict in Georgia
Georgia: Satellite Images Show Destruction, Ethnic Attacks (Human Rights Watch, 28-8-2008)
By the way, HRW has found no sign of the 2,000 dead civilians that the Russians used as their pretext to invade.
The term "Russian Peacemakers" is an oxymoron.
Why of course? why don't you have a flag, or your country there?
I used to be active on this forum 6-7 years ago, before all those flags and fancy pictures. And I am not planning to stay long.
The conflict is ended mostly. Georgia will not fight, and nobody will fight for it... so there is nothing really to discuss anymore.
Ok. What news do you watch?
Georgia will not fight? Can you explain that please? And nobody will fight for what? Georgia?
Of course it will not, I think it will take anything from 6 moths to a year to get Georgian army into any workable state. And even after that it's usability is debatable.
Of course there are spec. ops and partisan tactics, but that's not going to get Georgia anything besides damaging already damaged "aggression victim" image.
Nobody would send troops there to fight for Georgia, but there is always plenty of humanitarian goods at hand.
On the contrary, the conflict is just beginning. It has just left the battlefield and moved to different spheres. And don't think that no one else will ac to defend Georgia's soveriegnty. Do a little reading. See what the EU said yesteday.
Some of these things might not be broadcast on Russian news, I am sure.
Try to look beyond the television and any website ending with .ru
Did I miss something, and EU has actually released some form of joint statement in the end?
Btw, and I have told that earlier: I was very disappointed by any and all official media in this conflict. There was at least 12 hour news delay and generally all media reports were very biased. Some objective view was shown mostly by German and UK media.
As for Georgian sovereignty, I don't see anyone is attacking it. There are no armies marching to Tbilisi and storming the president's palace. So those two republics were anyway "de facto" independent since 1992, and you didn't lose much.
So why don't you start learning how to focus on your internal economical problems and live in peace with your neighbors, instead trying to send your troops over the border?
"De facto" or not, Abkhazia and South Ossetia are part of Georgia. The entire international community, with the exception of themselves, Russia, and a handful of countries.
Georgian troops did not cross any internationally recognized border, Russians did.
Medvedev's proclaimation has been strongly condemned by the EU and President Sarkozy says Russia is in violation of international law.
In fact, Russia is in violation of points five and six of the ceasefire they agreed to.
AND
Misha is not my president, I am not Georgian.
We all know how this "border" was created. So some imperial official wanted a straight line drawn on tops of mountains, and with the breakaway of USSR Georgia suddenly found itself a sole ruler.
Those lands were never a Georgian Georgia really, they were independent, semi-independent or autonomous.
And since Georgia became a state, they wanted the independence. They wanted it, they fought for it, and they've got it.
So I don't understand really why Georgia could not give them freedom.
p.s. Sorry, your nickname sounded Georgian, so I thought you were from there.
Interesting you recognized the name as Georgian
As far as giving them freedom, both regions have been offered limited autonomy such as in Adjara many times, the last instance actually on August 7th:
QUOTE
Saakashvili Appeals for Peace in Televised Address
Civil Georgia, Tbilisi / 7 Aug.'08 / 20:37
President Saakashvili said he had ordered Georgian forces to cease fire in South Ossetia and added that Tbilisi was ready to give Russia a role as guarantor of South Ossetia’s autonomy.
“A sniper war is ongoing against residents of villages [in the South Ossetian conflict zone] and as I speak now intense fire is ongoing from artillery, from tanks, from self-propelled artillery systems – which have been brought into the conflict zone illegally – and from other types of weaponry, including from mortars and grenade launchers,” Saakashvili said in a live televised address made at 7:10pm local time on August 7.
He said there were casualties, both dead and “many, many people are wounded.” He did not specify the numbers and officials from the Interior Ministry were also unable to give exact numbers on casualties.
“The Russian peacekeeping forces told us several hours ago that they have totally lost control over the separatist forces,” he said. “We are in constant contact with the Russian Foreign Ministry, but it has failed to convince the separatist to cease fire.”
“I want to acknowledge that several hours ago, I, as supreme commander, issued a very painful order not to return fire in response to very intense shelling [of Georgian villages],” he said.
Saakashvili said that he had ordered the cease-fire in order to engage the South Ossetian secessionists in talks.
He called for the immediate resumption of talks “in any type of format – whether it is bilateral, or multilateral – in order to overcome this impasse.”
Saakashvili reiterated that Tbilisi wanted to offer “unrestricted autonomy” for South Ossetia.
“And I am proposing that the Russian Federation act as guarantor of South Ossetian autonomy within Georgia,” Saakashvili said. It is the first time such a proposal has been publicly made.
“I offer a very important role to Russia in resolving this conflict,” he added. “Georgia is a natural ally for Russia… We need a real mediator.”
He said the proposal was designed to give Russia a role in the peace process and “to give the local population a sense that they are protected by the international community, by those people, who deserve their trust.”
Saakashvili also offered “a full amnesty to the separatists and those engaged in criminal activity if they immediately cease fire.”
“I am ready to undertake this step for peace; I am ready to pardon all the crimes committed over the years in order to obtain peace,” he said. “And for peace we are ready for any compromise and agreement.”
He also told the international community “not to try to portray the Georgian government as being in favor of violence.”
“We have been appealing to our partners for so many days – today we spoke with some world leaders – telling them to help stop the violence; help us in direct talks [with the secessionist authorities]; help us to internationalize the process. We are doing our utmost to prevent violence,” he said.
“Immediately cease fire, please,” he appealed to the secessionist authorities in South Ossetia at the end of his televised address. “We do not want to return fire. We have been tolerating this for so many years. Please, do not test the Georgian state’s patience. Let’s stop this spiral of violence… Let’s give peace and dialogue a chance.”
UNQUOTE
Russians should understand that their actions have set dangerous precedents
Speaking of freedom, why didn't Russian give the Chechens their freedom? Or Ingushetia? What will happen when the more than five million ethnic Chinese living in the Far East decide they want to have their independence?
I think Moscow will be singing a different tune then.
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