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Thread: Russian Arms Exports to Greece, Cyprus and Turkey

  1. #31
    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    My data for Greece was way off... Still doesnt change the fact that the economy is a basket case though, the rest was close enough.

    In regards to Constantinople you may be right, im Cypriot myself, i hear what i do from my Greek friends and associates, things may be different over there.

    Your Greek/Cypriot yourself?

    Chris

  2. #32
    Contributor LetsTalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chakos View Post
    My data for Greece was way off... Still doesnt change the fact that the economy is a basket case though, the rest was close enough.

    In regards to Constantinople you may be right, im Cypriot myself, i hear what i do from my Greek friends and associates, things may be different over there.

    Your Greek/Cypriot yourself?

    Chris
    Half-greek, my father was Greek. Born and raised in the states.

  3. #33
    Contributor Hitman817's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chakos View Post
    The three major issues that Greece will always have with Turkey are as follows in order of most to least importance.

    *The Agean Sea
    *Constantinople/Istanbul
    *Cyprus

    Cyprus is the simplest to resolve, im afraid the other 2 will have to wait till if and when the two countries come to blows again. Greeks will always see the Agean as a Greek pond and will always see Constantinople/Istanbul as their stolen capital. Realisitically i cant see either side giving an inch on either.
    Interesting, you are still dreaming of Istanbul. I thought this issue was settled .

  4. #34
    Contributor Hitman817's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LetsTalk View Post
    Neyzen based to your interesting comments, I have some of my own comments.
    • Cyprus is 78% Greek, 18% Turkish. Isn't Turkey 18%-20% Kurdish. Since Turkey has 2 "folk" I vote for a Northern Turkey (we can call it Kurdish Turkey, or Kurdistan). Isn't this what Turkey has done?
    • When Turkey invaded Cyprus the tiny nation of about 750,000 people, to offer protection to the Turkish 18% (135,000) of the population that owned about 10% of the land by occupying 37% of the Island. The result was:
      1. 180,000-200,000 Greek Cypriot and 45,000 Turkish Cypriot refugees
      2. 1,500 Greek Cypriot and 500 Turkish Cypriot missing
      3. Plenty dead and injured on both sides
      4. Both parties committed atrocities.
      5. Turkey has settled the Island with 120,000 Turks from Turkey (a UN violation, I no no-one seems to care about UN violations), while many of the original Turkish Cypriots have emigrated out of the Turkish occupied section.
      6. Strained relations between Turkey and Greece
    I don't see how the situation of the Kurds can be compared to the Cyprus issue, since there is no ethnic cleansing going on in Turkey and there are no treatis involving third parties as guarantor powers?

    And I actually don't understand either why only the Greek Part of Cyprus is recognized by the West, I assume because they are christians.


    BTW. Turkey is not occupying Cyprus, we have - as a guarantor country- the right to be there and protect the Turks.

  5. #35
    Contributor Hitman817's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LetsTalk View Post
    From WIKIPEDIA:
    "The territorial waters

    Territorial waters give the littoral state full control over air navigation in the airspace above, and partial control over shipping, although foreign ships (both civil and military) are normally guaranteed innocent passage through them. The standard width of territorial waters that countries are customarily entitled to has steadily increased in the course of the 20th century: from initially 3 nautical miles at the beginning of the century, to 6 miles, and currently 12 miles (c.22 km). The 12-mile value has been enshrined in treaty law by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982 (Art.3). In the Aegean the territorial waters claimed by both sides are still at 6 miles. The possibility of an extension to 12 miles has fuelled Turkish concerns over a possible disproportionate increase in Greek-controlled space. Turkey has refused to become a member of the convention and does not consider itself bound by it, although it has applied the customary 12 miles on its other coastlines outside the Aegean. Turkey considers the convention as res inter alios acta, i.e. a treaty that can only be binding to the signing parties but not to others. Greece, which is a party to the convention, has stated that it reserves the right to apply this rule and extend its waters to 12 miles at some point in the future, although it has never actually attempted to do so. It holds that the 12-mile rule is not only treaty law but also customary law at the same time, as per the wide consensus established among the international community. Against this, Turkey argues that the special geographical properties of the Aegean Sea make a strict application of the 12-mile rule in this case illicit in the interest of equity.[2] Furthermore, Turkey argues that although according to the convention the islands are considered as land and have their territorial waters, the third paragraph of Article 121 states that "Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf.". Turkey also claims that the attempts of Greece to extend their territorial waters to 12 miles violates Article 300 of the agreement as well, which mentions that "States Parties shall fulfil in good faith the obligations assumed under this Convention and shall exercise the rights, jurisdiction and freedoms recognized in this Convention in a manner which would not constitute an abuse of right.".[3]

    Tensions over the 12-mile question ran highest between the two countries in the early 1990s, when the Law of the Sea was going to come into force. On 9 June 1995, the Turkish parliament officially declared that unilateral action by Greece would constitute a casus belli, i.e. reason to go to war, by Turkey. This declaration has been condemned by Greece as a violation of the Charter of the United Nations, which forbids "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state".[1]"


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute
    As the article states, we did not sign the 12-miles treaty and have no obligation to accept it and Greece is in no position to force us to accept it.

  6. #36
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    And I actually don't understand either why only the Greek Part of Cyprus is recognized by the West, I assume because they are christians.
    Greek Part of Cyprus is not recognized by internationally. They recognized Republic of Cyprus. I think TRNC means "Turkey doesn't occupy the island" at the moment. But if events goes that way we can not know what will happen.

    Yesterday Greek Cypriots damaged Turkish Cypriots cars who stoped at red lines...

  7. #37
    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    Interesting, you are still dreaming of Istanbul. I thought this issue was settled .
    Personally, i couldnt care less about it. There are still many Greeks in Australia though that do. I just want a solution to the Cypriot problem. My family has land just North of the Capital that is VERY valuable. The sooner it is returned to us or we are fairly compensated (at todays market rates) for it again im a happy boy.

  8. #38
    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neyzen View Post
    Greek Part of Cyprus is not recognized by internationally. They recognized Republic of Cyprus. I think TRNC means "Turkey doesn't occupy the island" at the moment. But if events goes that way we can not know what will happen.

    Yesterday Greek Cypriots damaged Turkish Cypriots cars who stoped at red lines...
    Neyzen,

    The world recognises the Republic of Cyprus. That is the Greek side, why are you playing on words here?

    You dont see Northern Cyprus being able to join any international organisations? Quite simply because in everyones perspective except for Turkeys, it doesnt exist. You can twist that in any way you like but i look at it through international law and its actually very simple.

  9. #39
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    The world recognises the Republic of Cyprus. That is the Greek side, why are you playing on words here?
    I don't play with words. As you said the world recognizes Republic of Cyprus. But it is not Greek side. They recognize whole island as one state including Turkish north. I gave my perspective before for what happened in Cyprus, what is going on in Cyprus now and what will may TRNC be.

  10. #40
    Regular Vord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chakos View Post
    Personally, i couldnt care less about it. There are still many Greeks in Australia though that do. I just want a solution to the Cypriot problem. My family has land just North of the Capital that is VERY valuable. The sooner it is returned to us or we are fairly compensated (at todays market rates) for it again im a happy boy.
    Not going to happen. Not in your lifetime and not in your children's lifetimes. When you deny your minorities their basic civil rights, when you escalate things and commit outright attrocities, when you dare ethnically cleanse Turks on an island right off the coast of Turkey, you are bound to suffer severe consequences for generations! What would you expect the Turks to do? Sit back and watch their brothers and sisters get slaughtered?

    A little honest neighborly advice. You can go ahead and drink a glass of cold water over that piece of lost land and perhaps keep another glass ready in case some spoiled, overly confident Greek leader decides to try the Turks' patience one more time.

    And you mention Istanbul too? LOL. Just LOL. It has been a Turkish city since 1453 and will always be a Turkish city. Istanbul's population alone is a lot greater than that of Greece and South Cyprus combined and its economy too. Getting close to Istanbul, let alone entering it, would mean suicide for any Greek army.

  11. #41
    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vord View Post
    Not going to happen. Not in your lifetime and not in your children's lifetimes. When you deny your minorities their basic civil rights, when you escalate things and commit outright attrocities, when you dare ethnically cleanse Turks on an island right off the coast of Turkey, you are bound to suffer severe consequences for generations! What would you expect the Turks to do? Sit back and watch their brothers and sisters get slaughtered?

    A little honest neighborly advice. You can go ahead and drink a glass of cold water over that piece of lost land and perhaps keep another glass ready in case some spoiled, overly confident Greek leader decides to try the Turks' patience one more time.

    And you mention Istanbul too? LOL. Just LOL. It has been a Turkish city since 1453 and will always be a Turkish city. Istanbul's population alone is a lot greater than that of Greece and South Cyprus combined and its economy too. Getting close to Istanbul, let alone entering it, would mean suicide for any Greek army.
    Vord,

    The Cypriot issue is closer to being resolved than you would think. The Green Line has come down in some areas and negotiations are in place between the leadership of Cyprus and Northern Cyprus to come to a basic agreement based on a unified government with majority Greek minority Turkish seating arrangements in the Parlaiment. These negotiations do not include either Greece or Turkey because to be honest most Cypriots, Greeks and Turks alike are getting a little sick of both Greece and Turkey treating Cyprus at times like its theirs to give, take or partition. And for once the negotiations are also including negotiations on compensation for occupied properties on both sides.

    What you dont seem to get was that EOKA B was very much a Greek junta sponsored exercise, there was very little grass roots support for it by the Cypriots.

    In regards to Istanbul/Constantinople, Cypriots couldnt give a damn, if Greece and Turkey want to fight like two bald men fighting over a comb then they have that entitlement but it isnt one of our core issues that we concern ourselves with.

    On a more personal note you have noticed that on this thread Greeks, Turks and Cypriots are having a sensible discussion on this topic that hasnt resulted in fanboy posts such as yours. A word of advice, when you just start posting on a forum be very careful making posts like that to relativelly senior members with several hundred posts. There are people here entitled to pretty much commment as they please on any topic but they generally have several thousand posts to their names, have been here for many years and have earned their right to make comments like that... you havent.

    Im not making a big deal about it but fanboy attitutes from any side never got anybody far on WAB.

    Chris

  12. #42
    Contributor LetsTalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman817 View Post
    As the article states, we did not sign the 12-miles treaty and have no obligation to accept it and Greece is in no position to force us to accept it.
    However Turkey "has applied the customary 12 miles on its other coastlines outside the Aegean."

    I find this hypocritical

  13. #43
    Regular Vord's Avatar
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    Chakos,

    I wasn't aware that my comments violated the forum rules, if that is the case I take them back and apologize. If not, I don't see what the problem is. You may be judging me by my post count only (which doesn't really say much about a person's intellect) for now but I'm planning to be a regular here and the more we discuss, the more we'll get to know one another and I'm sure eventually gain each other's respect. Counter my arguments with valid anti-theses and we'll get along fine, but just because I'm new on this board, I'm not going to be giving in to unnecessary, vapid threats.

    As for the topic at hand, I'll believe it when it actually happens. KKTC allows Turkey to flex its muscles in a very important, strategic region that controls most of the traffic in the Eastern Mediterranean. That is too valuable of an asset at this point in time to give up. Turkey has nothing to gain by reaching a permanent solution in Cyprus. Through years, you'll witness just as I will that every virtually positive step in regards to the whole Cyprus issue will turn out to be a short-lived effort, a deception orchestrated not only by Turkey, but Greece, UK and other powers that be too.

  14. #44
    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vord View Post
    Chakos,

    I wasn't aware that my comments violated the forum rules, if that is the case I take them back and apologize. If not, I don't see what the problem is. You may be judging me by my post count only (which doesn't really say much about a person's intellect) for now but I'm planning to be a regular here and the more we discuss, the more we'll get to know one another and I'm sure eventually gain each other's respect. Counter my arguments with valid anti-theses and we'll get along fine, but just because I'm new on this board, I'm not going to be giving in to unnecessary, vapid threats.

    As for the topic at hand, I'll believe it when it actually happens. KKTC allows Turkey to flex its muscles in a very important, strategic region that controls most of the traffic in the Eastern Mediterranean. That is too valuable of an asset at this point in time to give up. Turkey has nothing to gain by reaching a permanent solution in Cyprus. Through years, you'll witness just as I will that every virtually positive step in regards to the whole Cyprus issue will turn out to be a short-lived effort, a deception orchestrated not only by Turkey, but Greece, UK and other powers that be too.
    Its not a forum rule per se but if you watch how people interact here you will work out whats acceptable.

    In regards to Cyprus would you agree with me then that Turkey is more concerned about its geopolitical interests than the genuine interest of the Turks that live in Cyprus?

    Already the Northern Cypriots voted to accept unification. It wasnt the right time nor at the right conditions but it proves your argument flawed. Northern Cypriot Turks will vote for what is in their best economic interests as opposed to the strategic interests of Turkey

  15. #45
    Contributor Hitman817's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LetsTalk View Post
    However Turkey "has applied the customary 12 miles on its other coastlines outside the Aegean."

    I find this hypocritical
    We applied it in the Black-See coast because there is ample space there and thus we don't get in conflict with other countries. We don't apply it in the Aegian Sea because there is not enough room for both countries to apply it, so it stays at 6 miles, that's just common sense. You Greeks should just stop producing unnecessary problems.
    Last edited by Hitman817; 28 Jan 09, at 03:27.

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