Thread: Greek veto - severest blow to NATO, US and EU

I strongly believe that in life, the mix of two things is the worst mode of a human being: Audacity and stupidity. Enhance that with a sick obsession and then you have a clear picture on the case of pseudo-Macedonia and the pseudo-Macedonian creatures.
Let’s face it. The situation of the miniature state of Skopje is hard. Denying what you really are (i.e. Slavs) and claiming that you are something that by no case you are (blundering that they are Macedonians, descendants of Alexander the Great etc. need no comment…) can only create problems to you. Nobody takes you seriously and everyone wants to exploit the goof. Come on, let’s face it. Not even Bush (!) believes that they are…Macedonians. US via NATO want to impose Skopje for their own reasons (see AMBO pipe), as they do in Kosovo. And yes, it is sad for people like Albanians of Kosovo and Slavs of Skopje to exist in the 21st century! With no dignity, occupying foreign lands as their own, stealing history from their neighbours…such states have no future for they first of all have no self-respect. They are just used from the stronger and then they are thrown away like trashes. Who knows, if Skopje still exist in 50 years time, maybe they will claim then they are the genuine descendants of Napoleon or Robin Hood or Tutankhamun or…)

My dearest troung, you must have flunked your history books.

Get over it, the Skopians were and still are Slavs and they only occupy the smaler part of the glorious ancient Macedonia. They came in the region in the 6th century AD. The real Macedonians spoke and were Greeks, like Alexander the Great, Phillip of Macedon (who united all city states of Greece) and the great philosopher Aristotle, to name just a few. All those great men were there more than a thousand years before the Skopians showed up in the region and they were proud to be called Greeks from Macedonia.

You should know and keep in mind that identity theft is a crime.
Get used to it the Skopians should find another name and not try to steal and change the history of others to accomodate themselves.

The Macedonians picked their name, they want to keep their damn name, grow up.

Plus they like us more than the Greeks.

Originally Posted by troung

The Macedonians picked their name, they want to keep their damn name, grow up.

Plus they like us more than the Greeks.

Another words according to you if they had picked the name Japan, and they wanted to keep it because they so liked, it would have been acceptable too.
I think it's you who needs to grow up.

And who may I ask is you that they like you more?
The people of Kyrgyzstan?

If Macedonia called themselves Bolivia or Canada one would assume Greece wouldn't ***** and whine, but the locals go by the name Macedonia (which the President calls them).


George W. Bush Passes Macedonian Geography Quiz
New Balkan Politics > George W. Bush Passes Macedonian Geography Quiz
Key Words: Macedonia, United States, Greece, foreign policy

Abstract: In 2004, the United States changed its policy toward Macedonia by dropping the awkward “FYROM” name. President George W. Bush’s administration promoted the name change as a reward for Macedonia’s democratic reforms. Despite Greek criticism, the decision has already paid dividends in bringing peace and stability to the Balkan country.
America’s Policy Change Toward Macedonia

United States President George W. Bush would never be mistaken for being a geography expert or someone with a photographic memory for country titles and locations. He has called Africa a nation, Europe a key ally, and the Kingdom of Jordan a Gulf Coast Country. In a reporter’s pop quiz during the 2000 election campaign, he only correctly identified one of four country leaders. Yet Bush has changed America’s policy on Macedonia’s name, ending more than a decade of identifying the Balkan nation by a clumsy name and helping bring peace and freedom to a country struggling with foreign recognition of its identity.

While most Americans’ attention was riveted upon the 2004 election and its aftermath, including a focus on the close vote in the state of Ohio, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld signed an agreement of cooperation which would refer to Macedonia by that name. Before that, the United States was one of many countries and international organizations that referred to the Balkan country by the name “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia,” a title quite unpopular with Macedonians.

The Greek-Macedonian Name Conflict to the top

The Greek foreign minister slammed the Bush decision as unilateral and claimed it would have many “negative effects” upon the region. But this reaction was predictable. When Macedonia won its freedom peacefully from the old Yugoslav Federation in 1991, Greece slapped an economic embargo on its neighbor to the north. This embargo, which helped halve the average Macedonian per capita income at a time of economic transition from Communism, was supplemented with a Greek veto of European Union (EU) aid and lack of support for Macedonian membership in organizations such as the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

Greek critics of the Macedonian title also expressed their desire to have FYROM residents renamed Slavs. Greece also claimed the name was part of Greek heritage and would lead to irredentist designs upon their Thracian territory and surrounding lands, despite the fact that much of Macedonia’s military hardware was turned over to Serbia as the price for peaceful independence. Some Greeks tried to have others simply refer to FYROM by the capital “Skopje”

Greece was challenged by the European Union in the European Court in Luxembourg for its actions towards the Macedonian economy. And President Bill Clinton pressured the Greek President to seek a compromise with then-Macedonian President Kiro Gligorov.

American policymakers at the time were more interested in preventing a row between the two countries. Despite the urging of President Bill Clinton’s East European envoy Richard Holbrooke (who later became US Ambassador to the United Nations), who wished for Greece to accept the country name Macedonia and the peoples as Macedonians, the United States used the name FYROM. The United Nations sanctioned the title FYROM as well.

The Name Change Policy Boosts Democracy and Peace to the top

While laboring under the FYROM title, Macedonia showed itself to be a good participant in the international community. It agreed to participate in the sanctions on the Yugoslav Federation at the time when its own economic situation was precarious (thanks to the Greek embargo). It housed hundreds of thousands of refugees from the Kosovo conflict, despite the fact that it taxed the resources of the small Balkan nation. When an Albanian insurgency broke out, Macedonia relied upon terms dictated by the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). These included some tough concessions to ethnic Albanians and Albanian insurgents of the National Liberation Army (NLA) spelled out in the Ohrid Peace Agreement.

According to a report by the AFP, the United States made its decision not to offend the Greeks, but to “reward Macedonia for its commitment to democracy.” This is hardly just rhetoric. Evidence of Macedonia’s democratic credentials is found in key democratic datasets such as Freedom House, Polity and Vanhanen’s Polyarchy Dataset.

Rather than have negative effects, as predicted by the Greek Minister, the Bush Administration’s decision to rename FYROM as Macedonia seems to have had a positive impact upon peace in that Balkan country. Before the American decision, Macedonians opposed to the Ohrid Peace Agreement rallied against parliamentary legislation designed to redraw municipal boundaries, which would give ethnic Albanians more autonomy. But after the U.S. decision to boost Macedonia’s international standing, controversy over the redrawn boundaries died down. A referendum designed to overturn the legislation failed due to low turnout. Local elections were held a few months later without serious incident.

Regardless of his fuzzy memory for country titles and locations, President George W. Bush understands the role names can play in bringing about peace and stability in a war-torn region. After all, he told the Economist on June 12, 1999 “Keep good relations with the Grecians.”

Bibliography to the top

BBC News “Peace Deal: What was agreed” August 22, 2001.
BBC News | EUROPE | Peace deal: What was agreed

BBC News “US snubs Greece over Macedonia.” November 4. 2004.
BBC NEWS | Europe | US snubs Greece over Macedonia

BBC News “Timeline: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia: A Chronology of Key Events.” April 4, 2005.
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Country profiles | Timeline: Macedonia

Balamaci, Thomas W. “What’s In a Name? The Greece – Macedonia Conflict.” The Newsletter of the Society Farsarotul, Volume X, Issue 1 (Spring 1996).
NL18_5: What's in a Name?

Conflict Early Warning System (CEWS). “Macedonia” Center for International Studies and the Department of International Relations at the University of Southern California. October 8, 1999.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/ir/cis/c.../macedonia.pdf

Glenny, Misha “Balkans Challenges for the West.” BBC News, July 1, 2001.
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Balkans challenges for the West

Hayton, Bill “Bid to Settle Macedonia Name Row.” BBC News January 1, 2002.
BBC News | EUROPE | Bid to settle Macedonia name row

Pan-Macedonian Association “Pan-Macedonian Association on Holbrooke.” 2000.
Pan-Macedonian Association USA, Inc.

Tures, John A.“The Measure of Macedonian Democracy.” New Balkan Politics 7:8 (X, 2003).
New Balkan Politics > The Measure of Macedonian Democracy

United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees “Refugees Daily” April 10, 1999.
http://www.unhcr.ch/news/media/daily.htm

Weisburg, Jacob. “The Complete Bushisms: The President’s Accidental Wit and Wisdom.” Slate Magazine. May 31, 2005.
The Complete Bushisms - By Jacob Weisberg - Slate Magazine

Wow, you certainly know how to flush em from cover Troung

I have been mobbed by three people with a combined total of six posts...

Smoking them out...

The reason Bush accepted their name one day after his 2004 reelection, was to boost the standing of this nation (if you can call it that), from being collapsed from the insurgency of the 25% Albanians in that country.
It is very doudtfull that this ministate is or will be viable in the future.
The Slavs in FYROM are only 66.6% the rest are Albanians, Gypsies, Turks, Bulgarians and Greeks.

The funny thing about it, is that Greece does not want them to fail as a state, and has helped them in different ways. Their only difference is the use of the name Macedonia which does not belong to them and cannot be monopolized. They are stealing and falcifying history, and this nobody has the right to do.
History cannot be rewritten to satisfy the whims of anyone for their own whatever agendas, and that includes president Bush or anyone else for that matter.

The flushing and the smoking out is done to people who show ignorance about historic truths and facts.

Get real my dear and recognize the truth.

) ) ) ) ) - I don't really care.

My President calls it Macedonia. The people in Macedonia call it Macedonia. America is the number one super power, thus the nation in question is Macedonia. I have no plans of ever going there or Greece, but my globe calls it Macedonia (well Mac).

Who cares outside of Greece how much of the population are slavs? You going to measure their skulls while you are at it? Run some blood tests to prove they ain't pure enough to give their country what ever damn name they want?

At the end of the day this eats you up. Greece's behavior struck me as incredibly stupid which is why I opened the topic.

Don't see old Zealand *****ing about New Zealand or York *****ing about New York. Or American burning down Mexico because they jocked the name from New Mexico.

Oh yeah...

Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia, Macedonia,

My president is wrong in trying to impose a name for which apparently is ignorant about the facts, but then again is not the first time he's been wrong about things.
This is what is called: "Trying to pull a fast one".

They should care inside their own country how many are Slavs, if they want to keep track of things, and have a country a few years down the road.

It is stupid on their part and also of the people who give them a hand in that, in trying to assume an identity that does not belong to them.
It does not also for your information this thing eating me up, at the end of the day I'll be sound asleep.

MACEDONIA WAS AND IS GREECE

This is what is called: "Trying to pull a fast one".

It's done, we call them Macedonia. My globe calls them that as does the map on my wall.

It does not also for your information this thing eating me up, at the end of the day I'll be sound asleep.

Well one could say 100 percent of your posts have been spent being mad at the "slavs" for picking a name for their country.

You started to dig up information on their ethnic origin as the reason why they don't have a right to name their country. You keep responding complaining that the "slavs" (officially called Macedonians) are stealing history.

ld care inside their own country how many are Slavs, if they want to keep track of things, and have a country a few years down the road.

Those "slavs" (or as Bush calls them - Macedonians) have a platoon of Rangers in Iraq and Greece hates America. Not a hard one here. I'll take a platoon of Rangers in Iraq over Greece's hating America.

=================

April 3, 2008, 4:59 pm
Shame On Greece: Messing With Macedonia
Shame On Greece: Messing With Macedonia - The Board - Editorials - Opinion - New York Times Blog
By The Editorial Board

The Macedonians walked out of the NATO summit on Thursday and we can’t say we blame them.

Croatia and Albania were granted membership in the western alliance at a leaders’ meeting in Bucharest, but Macedonia was barred for an absurd reason: Greece doesn’t like its name.

That decision shames Greece and it dishonors NATO, which has far more serious problems and challenges to worry about.

The name “Macedonia,” is shared by the former Yugoslav republic and by northern Greece. From the moment the former-Yugoslav Macedonia declared independence in 1991, the Greeks — reflecting byzantine Balkan politics — vehemently objected to the new state’s use of a name and symbols they regard as theirs.

As a result, the United Nations provisionally designated the country as “the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” — or, rather uneuphonically: FYROM.

Athens has since normalized relations and many countries, including the United States, have abandoned the clumsy FYROM in favor of Republic of Macedonia, which is what Macedonia calls itself.

A United Nations mediator tried to work out a compromise but in the end, Greece — a NATO member since 1952 — exercised its veto. The alliance operates on consensus.

Tiny Macedonia doesn’t threaten Greece under any name. In fact, bringing it into the NATO fold would enhance regional stability. Now, there are concerns Macedonia’s failure to gain alliance membership could fan nationalism and anti-Western sentiment as well as jeopardize its ability to join the European Union.

President Bush and European leaders should have worked harder at finding a solution to this corrosive problem before Greece exercised its veto.

Now they must ratchet up the pressure on Greece to achieve that compromise so that NATO’s insult to Macedonia is reversed as quickly as possible.

Originally Posted by troung

Now they must ratchet up the pressure on Greece to achieve that compromise so that NATO’s insult to Macedonia is reversed as quickly as possible.

Which will of course be a major source of resentment amongst Greeks against both America and the rest of the world for, oh I don't know, 3000 years?

I do have a serious question: how come if Macedonia is Greece, why isn't Greece called Macedonia? I mean that's a cool name. If I came from there I'd call it makkers. "Where you from?" "Makkers mate"

So how come the Makedonians snuck up and pinched your name, a name you hadn't got around to using yourselves in however many millennia Greece has been around.....