Thread: Russia disappoints the world

Originally Posted by Tronic

What constitutes a first world country? How well your people are fed, or how many ICBMs you can fly? If the latter, then I think the definition for "first world" may have to be altered to take some nations off the list.

If you dont understand what is Russia now,and what it can be in short future of 15-25 years. Russians have more money than Indians and per capita. They are growing at 7%.

Oil export earnings have allowed Russia to increase its foreign reserves from $12 billion in 1999 to some $470 billion at yearend 2007, the third largest reserves in the world

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/rs.html

He is of the breed who likes to think that Russia has inherited the USSR's cold war. If my country's leaders pushed their weight around in the international arena, i'm sure even their aproval ratings would shoot through the roof. You have to understand a nation's ambitions; and it is no secret that Russians like to play a heavy weight.

Like it or not, Russia is a heavy weight in world politics. Americans want poodle out of Russia, which wont happen.

Those are the ambitions of the leaders and the populace of that country. And I respect them for it.

You dont get it again, If the sceanrio I said is happening in Russia, then the strategy of poking russia in the eye and not being an magnanimous victor will hit back, It is a matter of time. Either stop the Russian economic boom, or change the diplomatic tone of talking to russia.

Originally Posted by lwarmonger

I'd say this is the problem that Russia has always had. A top heavy focus on armament production at the expense of the economy that is supposed to support it.

Russia could be rich. It could be a great power, even though the circumstances that turned it into a superpower are long since gone. But it has got to focus on its economy... and it has never done so. Not the heavy industry used by the government and military, not only the industries it can leverage to short term national advantage, the civilian economy has to be a primary concern for Russia to assume that great power role for long. The government and the military have to come after the economy, otherwise they are all diminished in the long run.

Until Russia discovers this they are going to continue to alternate between collapse and catch up every 20-40 years.

Lwarmonger,

Russians achieved what they did from 1999-2008 by wiping of the OIligarchs. Russians wont even have operating money if not else. Expect the Government to pump money into civic bodies, military, development etc and THEN loosening the grip on the economy, This metholdology will let them have operating cash not be at the mercy of outsiders as well as oligarchs. These are the same people who understood Soviet Union was unworkable and bad economic system, therefore they left it. They gave a shock treatement into capitalism, thus Oligarchs when in reality they should have just slowly left the grip over the economy like India is reforming. American Businessmen, Oligarchs, heck even the Indians used the Russians in 1990's to make a quick buck and get a good deal from the Russian misery.

As one Russian minister "Anybody who says Soviet Union was evil doesnt have a heart, anybody who says Soviet Union was a bad system and a wrong economic model, is absolutely right"

Originally Posted by Adux

Lwarmonger,


As one Russian minister "Anybody who says Soviet Union was evil doesnt have a heart, anybody who says Soviet Union was a bad system and a wrong economic model, is absolutely right"

I´ve got no problem being heartless by his definition .

Originally Posted by braindead

I´ve got no problem being heartless by his definition .

I am sure,

But then again, you are telling people to call half of their lives as evil, and whatever success and sacrifices they have made, especially in World War 2 as something not worth while. It is this sentiment which has made the Russian Airforce retain the Red Star.

These successes had their price too . And on somebodys expense .
Should a Kazakh boy born blind with huge tumors over his eyes (because of Semipalatinsk polygon nearby) be thankful for Sov. Union ?

Or should we be thankful for Sov.nucl. weapons program uranium enrichment plant built here in Sillamäe in 1950 , that had a open waste reservoir (called ´Lake Radiation´) couple metres from Baltic Sea ?

As you can see from picture most of it is covered by 2006 (and with EU money ), but the outlines can be seen .



Sov. Union - what a waste of human life and human hopes .

Point taken and agreed. Though I do understand both sides of the coin.

Originally Posted by braindead

These successes had their price too . And on somebodys expense .
Should a Kazakh boy born blind with huge tumors over his eyes (because of Semipalatinsk polygon nearby) be thankful for Sov. Union ?

Or should we be thankful for Sov.nucl. weapons program uranium enrichment plant built here in Sillamäe in 1950 , that had a open waste reservoir (called ´Lake Radiation´) couple metres from Baltic Sea ?

As you can see from picture most of it is covered by 2006 (and with EU money ), but the outlines can be seen .



Sov. Union - what a waste of human life and human hopes .

I believe teams from the US and Europe are also trying to clear up the mess the dumped subs are creating because Russia cannot afford to do it also

Originally Posted by Adux

Lwarmonger,

Russians achieved what they did from 1999-2008 by wiping of the OIligarchs. Russians wont even have operating money if not else. Expect the Government to pump money into civic bodies, military, development etc and THEN loosening the grip on the economy, This metholdology will let them have operating cash not be at the mercy of outsiders as well as oligarchs. These are the same people who understood Soviet Union was unworkable and bad economic system, therefore they left it. They gave a shock treatement into capitalism, thus Oligarchs when in reality they should have just slowly left the grip over the economy like India is reforming. American Businessmen, Oligarchs, heck even the Indians used the Russians in 1990's to make a quick buck and get a good deal from the Russian misery.

That right there is the problem. It is the tail wagging the dog. Look, Russia's economic problems weren't solely, or even largely, caused by the oligarchs. Hell, if one looks at it logically, that system of business hasn't really changed in Russia, just the players in it have. Russia was confronted with two massive problems at the end of the Cold War. First, they were exposed to outside competition for the first time in 80 years, and were stuck with the realization that no one wanted to buy Russian products, because Russian products were inferior in quality and design to their western counterparts. They were not designed around what people wanted, but what the government decided people wanted.

Problem is, people still don't want Russia products. They want Russian raw materials, but Russian manufactured goods and services are a very small portion of the Russian exports. Russia is getting a windfall with the high energy prices, and instead they are squandering it.

The second problem that Russia encountered at the end of the Cold War (when it was still the Soviet Union... from Breznev onwards) was massive corruption. Many estimates put black market activity as accounting for 25% of economic activity in the old Soviet Union. Corruption became a way of life, and the Russians of the 1990's were paying for it.

This from another thread:

There is nothing deceptive about the motive as far as I can see, They are building up and getting ready for another confrontation with the US and the west. They have been pushed around,humilitated and not shown the maganamity of a victor. There are lots of reason for Russikies going nuts and the West is not immune from it.

Russia is building up and getting ready for another confrontation with the West. This is its problem. It should be making productive investment into infrastructure, encouraging foreign investment and private sector R&D money. Instead it is still trying to play the part of the great power. Russia has an economy roughly two thirds the size of Germany (!), and is far less broad based. Yet it is gearing up for a confrontation with the West, which includes all of the EU (roughly 8-10 times richer than Russia with a very diverse economy) and the US (also roughly 8-10 times richer with a very diverse economy). And this is with high energy prices artificially inflating Russian exports.

How does this look good in the end for Russia? 20 years with a genuine focus on and committment to business in Russia (including cleaning up corruption at all levels of government and business) and you would hardly recognize that nation. It would be a great power. But right now most of its investment is centered around its resource based economy, and much of that oil money is being frittered away on paying off debt, topping off pension funds, and trying to play the same role on the world stage as the old Soviet Union. That is instead of kick starting Russian industry into the 21st century, which would make Russia viable as a great power over the long term.