+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 16 to 27 of 27

Thread: Russian Fears

  1. #16
    Staff Emeritus
    Join Date
    06 Aug 03
    Posts
    21,965
    Country: Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by physicsmonk View Post
    Sir, should india also take this route? I mean with advances in sat surveillance wouldnt land based missiles be very vulnerable? Unless we also want to adopt the artillery barrage technique of PLA that you mentioned.
    You need to pay for 3 SSBNs to do the job of one missile regiment.
    Chimo

  2. #17
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Jul 05
    Location
    North London, UK
    Posts
    2,292
    Country: United Kingdom
    In terms of theoretical throwweight, or likely impacts on the target in a realistic scenario? This is of course coloured by my lack of knowledge concerning how many missiles and MIRVs a regiment has.
    HD Ready?

  3. #18
    Staff Emeritus
    Join Date
    06 Aug 03
    Posts
    21,965
    Country: Canada
    Operational. A regiment can be operational all year with singular missiles being rotated in and out of operations for servicing. A SSBN has to spend two thirds of its time in port, either getting ready for deployment or being serviced after a deployment.
    Chimo

  4. #19
    Military Enthusiast Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Aug 03
    Posts
    2,832
    But a SSBN is the ultimate stealth platform, right? Which one is the most versatile and durable platform, meaning it can't be taken out on a first strike basis without suffering massive retaliation?

  5. #20
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Jul 05
    Location
    North London, UK
    Posts
    2,292
    Country: United Kingdom
    That's what I'm concerned about, how much firepower will the SSBN forces actually manage to put on target versus those from the regiment?
    HD Ready?

  6. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    12 Jun 07
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    2,297
    Country: Russian Federation
    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    During the Gulf War, US went out of their way to look for mobile Scud missile launchers and could only find 13 of them while many Scuds were fired at Israel and Saudi Arabia. That tells you mobile missile launchers may be viable. At least Russia is going for mobile missiles.
    13 out of how many? oh and don't forget that a Topol-M is 22 meters vs the 11 meters Scuds.

  7. #22
    Contributor JohnFlint1985's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Oct 07
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    318
    Country: United States

    The Russia Problem

    Stratfor - Member Login

    The Russia Problem
    October 16, 2007 20 28 GMT



    By Peter Zeihan

    For the past several days, high-level Russian and American policymakers, including U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and Russian President Vladimir Putin's right-hand man, Sergei Ivanov, have been meeting in Moscow to discuss the grand scope of U.S.-Russian relations. These talks would be of critical importance to both countries under any circumstances, as they center on the network of treaties that have governed Europe since the closing days of the Cold War.

    Against the backdrop of the Iraq war, however, they have taken on far greater significance. Both Russia and the United States are attempting to rewire the security paradigms of key regions, with Washington taking aim at the Middle East and Russia more concerned about its former imperial territory. The two countries' visions are mutually incompatible, and American preoccupation with Iraq is allowing Moscow to overturn the geopolitics of its backyard.

    The Iraqi Preoccupation

    After years of organizational chaos, the United States has simplified its plan for Iraq: Prevent Iran from becoming a regional hegemon. Once-lofty thoughts of forging a democracy in general or supporting a particular government were abandoned in Washington well before the congressional testimony of Gen. David Petraeus. Reconstruction is on the back burner and even oil is now an afterthought at best. The entirety of American policy has been stripped down to a single thought: Iran.

    That thought is now broadly held throughout not only the Bush administration but also the American intelligence and defense communities. It is not an unreasonable position. An American exodus from Iraq would allow Iran to leverage its allies in Iraq's Shiite South to eventually gain control of most of Iraq. Iran's influence also extends to significant Shiite communities on the Persian Gulf's western oil-rich shore. Without U.S. forces blocking the Iranians, the military incompetence of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar could be perceived by the Iranians as an invitation to conquer that shore. That would land roughly 20 million barrels per day of global oil output -- about one-quarter of the global total -- under Tehran's control. Rhetoric aside, an outcome such as this would push any U.S. president into a broad regional war to prevent a hostile power from shutting off the global economic pulse.

    So the United States, for better or worse, is in Iraq for the long haul. This requires some strategy for dealing with the other power with the most influence in the country, Iran. This, in turn, leaves the United States with two options: It can simply attempt to run Iraq as a protectorate forever, a singularly unappealing option, or it can attempt to strike a deal with Iran on the issue of Iraq -- and find some way to share influence.

    Since the release of the Petraeus report in September, seeking terms with Iran has become the Bush administration's unofficial goal, but the White House does not want substantive negotiations until the stage is appropriately set. This requires that Washington build a diplomatic cordon around Iran -- intensifying Tehran's sense of isolation -- and steadily ratchet up the financial pressure. Increasing bellicose rhetoric from European capitals and the lengthening list of major banks that are refusing to deal with Iran are the nuts and bolts of this strategy.

    Not surprisingly, Iran views all this from a starkly different angle. Persia has historically been faced with a threat of invasion from its western border -- with the most recent threat manifesting in a devastating 1980-1988 war that resulted in a million deaths. The primary goal of Persia's foreign policy stretching back a millennium has been far simpler than anything the United States has cooked up: Destroy Mesopotamia. In 2003, the United States was courteous enough to handle that for Iran.

    Now, Iran's goals have expanded and it seeks to leverage the destruction of its only meaningful regional foe to become a regional hegemon. This requires leveraging its Iraqi assets to bleed the Americans to the point that they leave. But Iran is not immune to pressure. Tehran realizes that it might have overplayed its hand internationally, and it certainly recognizes that U.S. efforts to put it in a noose are bearing some fruit. What Iran needs is its own sponsor -- and that brings to the Middle East a power that has not been present there for quite some time: Russia.

    Option One: Parity

    The Russian geography is problematic. It lacks oceans to give Russia strategic distance from its foes and it boasts no geographic barriers separating it from Europe, the Middle East or East Asia. Russian history is a chronicle of Russia's steps to establish buffers -- and of those buffers being overwhelmed. The end of the Cold War marked the transition from Russia's largest-ever buffer to its smallest in centuries. Put simply, Russia is terrified of being overwhelmed -- militarily, economically, politically and culturally -- and its policies are geared toward re-establishing as large a buffer as possible.

    As such, Russia needs to do one of two things. The first is to re-establish parity. As long as the United States thinks of Russia as an inferior power, American power will continue to erode Russian security. Maintain parity and that erosion will at least be reduced. Putin does not see this parity coming from a conflict, however. While Russia is far stronger now -- and still rising -- than it was following the 1998 ruble crash, Putin knows full well that the Soviet Union fell in part to an arms race. Attaining parity via the resources of a much weaker Russia simply is not an option.

    So parity would need to come via the pen, not the sword. A series of three treaties ended the Cold War and created a status of legal parity between the United States and Russia. The first, the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty (CFE), restricts how much conventional defense equipment each state in NATO and the former Warsaw Pact, and their successors, can deploy. The second, the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START I), places a ceiling on the number of intercontinental ballistic missiles that the United States and Russia can possess. The third, the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF), eliminates entirely land-based short-, medium- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles with ranges of 300 to 3,400 miles, as well as all ground-launched cruise missiles from NATO and Russian arsenals.

    The constellation of forces these treaties allow do not provide what Russia now perceives its security needs to be. The CFE was all fine and dandy in the world in which it was first negotiated, but since then every Warsaw Pact state -- once on the Russian side of the balance sheet -- has joined NATO. The "parity" that was hardwired into the European system in 1990 is now lopsided against the Russians.

    START I is by far the Russians' favorite treaty, since it clearly treats the Americans and Russians as bona fide equals. But in the Russian mind, it has a fateful flaw: It expires in 2009, and there is about zero support in the United States for renewing it. The thinking in Washington is that treaties were a conflict management tool of the 20th century, and as American power -- constrained by Iraq as it is -- continues to expand globally, there is no reason to enter into a treaty that limits American options. This philosophical change is reflected on both sides of the American political aisle: Neither the Bush nor Clinton administrations have negotiated a new full disarmament treaty.

    Finally, the INF is the worst of all worlds for Russia. Intermediate-range missiles are far cheaper than intercontinental ones. If it does come down to an arms race, Russia will be forced to turn to such systems if it is not to be left far behind an American buildup.

    Russia needs all three treaties to be revamped. It wants the CFE altered to reflect an expanded NATO. It wants START I extended (and preferably deepened) to limit long-term American options. It wants the INF explicitly linked to the other two treaties so that Russian options can expand in a pinch -- or simply discarded in favor of a more robust START I.

    The problem with the first option is that it assumes the Americans are somewhat sympathetic to Russian concerns. They are not.

    Recall that the dominant concern in the post-Cold War Kremlin is that the United States will nibble along the Russian periphery until Moscow itself falls. The fear is as deeply held as it is accurate. Only three states have ever threatened the United States: The first, the United Kingdom, was lashed into U.S. global defense policy; the second, Mexico, was conquered outright; and the third was defeated in the Cold War. The addition of the Warsaw Pact and the Baltic states to NATO, the basing of operations in Central Asia and, most important, the Orange Revolution in Ukraine have made it clear to Moscow that the United States plays for keeps.

    The Americans see it as in their best interest to slowly grind Russia into dust. Those among our readers who can identify with "duck and cover" can probably relate to the logic of that stance. So, for option one to work, Russia needs to have leverage elsewhere. That elsewhere is in Iran.

    Via the U.N. Security Council, Russian cooperation can ensure Iran's diplomatic isolation. Russia's past cooperation on Iran's Bushehr nuclear power facility holds the possibility of a Kremlin condemnation of Iran's nuclear ambitions. A denial of Russian weapons transfers to Iran would hugely empower ongoing U.S. efforts to militarily curtail Iranian ambitions. Put simply, Russia has the ability to throw Iran under the American bus -- but it will not do it for free. In exchange, it wants those treaties amended in its favor, and it wants American deference on security questions in the former Soviet Union.

    The Moscow talks of the past week were about addressing all of Russian concerns about the European security structure, both within and beyond the context of the treaties, with the offer of cooperation on Iran as the trade-off. After days of talks, the Americans refused to budge on any meaningful point.

    Option Two: Imposition

    Russia has no horse in the Iraq war. Moscow had feared that its inability to leverage France and Germany to block the war in the first place would allow the United States to springboard to other geopolitical victories. Instead, the Russians are quite pleased to see the American nose bloodied. They also are happy to see Iran engrossed in events to its west. When Iran and Russia strengthen -- as both are currently -- they inevitably begin to clash as their growing spheres of influence overlap in the Caucasus and Central Asia. In many ways, Russia is now enjoying the best of all worlds: Its Cold War archrival is deeply occupied in a conflict with one of Moscow's own regional competitors.

    In the long run, however, the Russians have little doubt that the Americans will eventually prevail. Iran lacks the ability to project meaningful power beyond the Persian Gulf, while the Russians know from personal experience how good the Americans are at using political, economic, military and alliance policy to grind down opponents. The only question in the Russian mind pertains to time frame.

    If the United States is not willing to rejigger the European-Russian security framework, then Moscow intends to take advantage of a distracted United States to impose a new reality upon NATO. The United States has dedicated all of its military ground strength to Iraq, leaving no wiggle room should a crisis erupt anywhere else in the world. Should Russia create a crisis, there is nothing the United States can do to stop it.

    So crisis-making is about to become Russia's newest growth industry. The Kremlin has a very long list of possibilities, which includes:



    Destabilizing the government of Ukraine: The Sept. 30 elections threaten to result in the re-creation of the Orange Revolution that so terrifies Moscow. With the United States largely out of the picture, the Russians will spare no effort to ensure that Ukraine remains as dysfunctional as possible.

    Azerbaijan is emerging as a critical energy transit state for Central Asian petroleum, as well as an energy producer in its own right. But those exports are wholly dependent upon Moscow's willingness not to cause problems for Baku.

    The extremely anti-Russian policies of the former Soviet state of Georgia continue to be a thorn in Russia's side. Russia has the ability to force a territorial breakup or to outright overturn the Georgian government using anything from a hit squad to an armored division.

    EU states obviously have mixed feelings about Russia's newfound aggression and confidence, but the three Baltic states in league with Poland have successfully hijacked EU foreign policy with regard to Russia, effectively turning a broadly cooperative relationship hostile. A small military crisis with the Balts would not only do much to consolidate popular support for the Kremlin but also would demonstrate U.S. impotence in riding to the aid of American allies.

    Such actions not only would push Russian influence back to the former borders of the Soviet Union but also could overturn the belief within the U.S. alliance structure that the Americans are reliable -- that they will rush to their allies' aid at any time and any place. That belief ultimately was the heart of the U.S. containment strategy during the Cold War. Damage that belief and the global security picture changes dramatically. Barring a Russian-American deal on treaties, inflicting that damage is once again a full-fledged goal of the Kremlin. The only question is whether the American preoccupation in Iraq will last long enough for the Russians to do what they think they need to do.

    Luckily for the Russians, they can impact the time frame of American preoccupation with Iraq. Just as the Russians have the ability to throw the Iranians under the bus, they also have the ability to empower the Iranians to stand firm.

    On Oct. 16, Putin became the first Russian leader since Leonid Brezhnev to visit Iran, and in negotiations with the Iranian leadership he laid out just how his country could help. Formally, the summit was a meeting of the five leaders of the Caspian Sea states, but in reality the meeting was a Russian-Iranian effort to demonstrate to the Americans that Iran does not stand alone.

    A good part of the summit involved clearly identifying differences with American policy. The right of states to nuclear energy was affirmed, the existence of energy infrastructure that undermines U.S. geopolitical goals was supported and a joint statement pledged the five states to refuse to allow "third parties" from using their territory to attack "the Caspian Five." The last is a clear bullying of Azerbaijan to maintain distance from American security plans.

    But the real meat is in bilateral talks between Putin and his Iranian counterpart, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and the two sides are sussing out how Russia's ample military experience can be applied to Iran's U.S. problem. Some of the many, many possibilities include:


    Kilo-class submarines: The Iranians already have two and the acoustics in the Persian Gulf are notoriously bad for tracking submarines. Any U.S. military effort against Iran would necessitate carrier battle groups in the Persian Gulf.

    Russia fields the Bal-E, a ground-launched Russian version of the Harpoon anti-ship missile. Such batteries could threaten any U.S. surface ship in the Gulf. A cheaper option could simply involve the installation of Russian coastal artillery systems.

    Russia and India have developed the BrahMos anti-ship cruise missile, which has the uniquely deadly feature of being able to be launched from land, ship, submarine or air. While primarily designed to target surface vessels, it also can act as a more traditional -- and versatile -- cruise missile and target land targets.

    Flanker fighters are a Russian design (Su-27/Su-30) that compares very favorably to frontline U.S. fighter jets. Much to the U.S. Defense Department's chagrin, Indian pilots in Flankers have knocked down some U.S. pilots in training scenarios.

    The S-300 anti-aircraft system is still among the best in the world, and despite eviscerated budgets, the Russians have managed to operationalize several upgrades since the end of the Cold War. It boasts both a far longer range and far more accuracy than the Tor-M1 and Pantsyr systems on which Iran currently depends.

    Such options only scratch the surface of what the Russians have on order, and the above only discusses items of use in a direct Iranian-U.S. military conflict. Russia also could provide Iran with an endless supply of less flashy equipment to contribute to intensifying Iranian efforts to destabilize Iraq itself.

    For now, the specifics of Russian transfers to Iran are tightly held, but they will not be for long. Russia has as much of an interest in getting free advertising for its weapons systems as Iran has in demonstrating just how high a price it will charge the United States for any attack.

    But there is one additional reason this will not be a stealth relationship.

    The Kremlin wants Washington to be fully aware of every detail of how Russian sales are making the U.S. Army's job harder, so that the Americans have all the information they need to make appropriate decisions as regards Russia's role. Moscow is not doing this because it is vindictive; this is simply how the Russians do business, and they are open to a new deal.

    Russia has neither love for the Iranians nor a preference as to whether Moscow reforges its empire or has that empire handed back. So should the United States change its mind and seek an accommodation, Putin stands perfectly ready to betray the Iranians' confidence.

    For a price.
    "We Shall Never Surrender" Winston Churchill

  8. #23
    Ray
    Ray is offline
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    20 Aug 03
    Posts
    19,528
    Country: India
    Russians in Abkhazia

    Are Russians in Abkhazia a tool for Georgia's election campaign? From EurasiaNet.

    By Giorgi Lomsadze for EurasiaNet (23/11/07)

    While international attention focuses on the upcoming Georgian presidential elections, Tbilisi’s tussle with the opposition has coincided with a stepped-up campaign against Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia.

    The opposition contends that the alarm bells about an alleged Russian military build-up in the region are politically motivated. Some analysts, meanwhile, say that President Mikhail Saakashvili's administration stands to gain little, if any, domestic political benefit from confronting Russia at this time.

    Shortly after prosecutors began alleging that opposition members and tycoon Badri Patarkatsishvili were conspiring with Russian intelligence agents to undermine the Saakashvili government, a report surfaced about the deployment of some 200 Russian troops, five tanks, four multiple rocket launchers, five armored personnel carriers and seven howitzers to the Abkhaz port of Ochamchira, not far from the border with Georgia.

    "This … aims to provoke a conflict there [in Abkhazia]," State Minister for Conflict Resolution Davit Bakradze said at a 12 November news conference. "Apparently, some people in the Russian Federation considered that Georgia is now weakened and that they have a good chance to take advantage of the situation."

    As have American and European diplomats, the United Nations Observers Mission to Georgia stated that it could neither confirm nor deny the statement. Russia has categorically denied the report.

    Parliamentary Speaker Nino Burjanadze has since called on the United Nations to dispatch observers to Abkhazia to assess the situation. Her appeal followed a 31 October decision by Georgia to cancel the mandate of Russian peacekeepers in both Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

    The odds of Tbilisi managing to remove the peacekeepers from the two regions, though, are slim, noted Alexander Rondeli, president of the Georgian Foundation for Strategic and International Studies. "The Georgian government may decide all it wants, but they [Russian peacekeepers] are not going to leave."

    That leaves some to wonder whether the government is instead playing to a domestic audience. Amid the political turmoil that followed the 7 November declaration of a state of emergency, officials started issuing warnings about Moscow allegedly planning to destabilize the post-conflict areas. State Minister for Conflict Resolution Bakradze, in fact, predicted "provocations" the day before he announced the alleged beefing-up of Russian forces in Abkhazia.

    Opposition members have argued that officials are trying to focus public attention on Russia to score points at the ballot box.

    The establishment of the Ganmukhuri youth camp near the Abkhaz border in May 2006, well before the November crisis, was, in fact, "a political PR move more than anything else," argued Paata Zakareishvili, a conflict analyst affiliated with the opposition Republican Party. On 30 October, President Saakashvili was televised on site lambasting Russian peacekeepers who had detained Georgian police guarding the camp. The United Nations has called for the camp's removal.

    Independent political analyst Ramaz Sakvarelidze believes that Georgia is using Moscow to distract attention away from domestic difficulties. "Amid the political turmoil at home and with the election coming up, the government is trying to change the subject," Sakvarelidze said.

    Some experts, however, disagree. Tina Gugeliani, political analyst at Tbilisi's International Center of Conflict and Negotiations, says that the recent focus on Abkhazia and Russia's role is triggered by developments in international politics rather than domestic events.

    "The international debate around Kosovo's status is forcing the Georgian government to concentrate on Abkhazia," Gugeliani said. "Russia said that recognizing Kosovo's independence could become a precedent that would then be applied to places like Abkhazia. Georgia, therefore, is bracing to protect itself against such a turn of events."

    Outrage at increasing calls by Russian politicians to recognize both Abkhazia and the breakaway region of South Ossetia as separatist states - a move that one pro-government Georgian parliamentarian warned would be a de facto declaration of war against Georgia - has cut across party lines.

    Some observers add that Georgia has little to gain by increasing tensions with Moscow on the eve of an election.

    "A foreign threat may indeed create a favorable backdrop for Saakashvili's bid for the presidency, but as his government is already shaken by a domestic political crisis, he would not seek to fuel tensions with Moscow any further," Ghia Nodia, director of the Caucasus Center for Peace, Democracy and Development.

    "Saakashvili is instead focusing his campaign on social issues as this is the key concern for the population, rather than an outside menace. There is nothing new in his line on Russia and Abkhazia, so the recent flare-up is not really election-related."

    But within Abkhazia, the response to 7 November itself may have already fed misgivings about removing the Russian peacekeepers, noted the representative of one international non-governmental conflict resolution organization that is active in the breakaway territory.

    "Recent developments internally in Georgia only served to confirm opinions in Abkhaz society that Georgia is not a reliable interlocutor and certainly not a political community they want to be part of," commented Jonathan Cohen, Caucasus Program Director for Conciliation Resources. "And that is the biggest issue Georgia has to overcome."

    With international peacekeepers stretched thin by various conflict situations worldwide, that skepticism could only further hinder international willingness to consider alternative peacekeeping scenarios for Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Cohen noted.

    "A bigger problem is that Georgians for 15 years now have not pursued a policy of building confidence among Abkhazians," Cohen said. "The question Georgia needs to ask itself is why the Abkhaz feel more secure with Russia, even though they have a number of concerns about the Russian engagement in Abkhazia."
    ISN Security Watch - Russians in Abkhazia
    An input into the fears of Russia's neighbours!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  9. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    12 Jun 07
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    2,297
    Country: Russian Federation
    deployment of some 200 Russian troops, five tanks, four multiple rocket launchers, five armored personnel carriers and seven howitzers to the Abkhaz port of Ochamchira, not far from the border with Georgia.
    So realistically Georgia is worried because a Russian infantry company, with a tank company and two artillery batteries of support were redeployed.................... right. If thats enough to destabilize all of Georgia then maybe Georgia needs a little de-stabilization.

  10. #25
    Staff Emeritus
    Join Date
    06 Aug 03
    Posts
    21,965
    Country: Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
    That's what I'm concerned about, how much firepower will the SSBN forces actually manage to put on target versus those from the regiment?
    They will be the same. As you alluded to elsewhere, there are advantages and disadvantages to any leg of the triad. SLBMs are much more inaccurate than their land based cousins and deploying them costs 10 times as much (you can't exactly go out and get fresh bread everyday) but the odds of you being found are extremely slim. Land based systems are cheaper, more accurate, and packs a bigger punch but the enemy have already found you. Nothing beats aircraft accuracy and you could be in the air before your base is blown but getting through enemy air defences?

    However, the final question is how much do you want to spend to burn babies alive?
    Chimo

  11. #26
    Military Enthusiast Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Aug 03
    Posts
    2,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

    However, the final question is how much do you want to spend to burn babies alive?
    I think that's the wrong question to ask. The question is how much do you want to spend to make the other guy think twice before attempting to burn your babies alive.

  12. #27
    Staff Emeritus
    Join Date
    06 Aug 03
    Posts
    21,965
    Country: Canada
    No one is going to think twice if you're not willing to the job. At the very least, you have to believe that you will do the job.
    Chimo

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Similar Threads

  1. Analysis: Chechnya
    By Ironduke in forum Europe and Russia
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 29 Jul 08,, 00:30
  2. Top Ten Chinese Military Modernization Developments
    By oneman28 in forum East Asia and the Pacific
    Replies: 96
    Last Post: 23 Jun 08,, 06:49
  3. Russian facism
    By Alamgir in forum International Economy
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 23 Apr 08,, 21:16
  4. Greatest Turkish Empires
    By AlpErTunga in forum Ancient, Medieval & Early Modern Ages
    Replies: 177
    Last Post: 12 Jan 08,, 11:49
  5. So who moved the WMD? Someone did...
    By Bill in forum The Middle East and North Africa
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 16 Mar 06,, 15:54

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts