Thread: Russia on the march - again

Well , I meant actually that Russias recent behaviour is more like Nazi Germany´s action before Munich crisis . Actually it is quote from local russian journalist , Andrei Hvostov . .

I don't know who is Andrei Hvostov and this is an issue of feelings who is more like Nazi Germany. But the fact is that memorials for Nazi Waffen SS are been built in Estonia, not in Russia.

But these memorial was set up by private citizen . BTW , I´ve heard rumors of SS-monument in Moscow . Hope THIS is not true . Hvostov is my favourite journalist here , quite critical of our govm.-t , but definately not Russia-orientated . He´s writings get quite much flak from both sides , Est.-s and russians .

08.05.2007

Brutal measures

A German father and son describe their moments of horror in the custody of the Tallinn police

The 65-year-old Klaus Dornemann was beaten violently with black jacks in his sides and hands. Lucas Dornemann lost sensation in his fingers for a few days and different parts of his body are still hurting.

- That beating was quite incomprehensible. The policemen were beating those apprehended with black jacks like crazy. There was no logic, they were just having fun and getting a kick out of beating up people, German Lucas Dornemann, 37, and Klaus Dornemann, 67, reminisce about last Friday night.

The father and son, who have been living in Tallinn for a long time, were walking in the port area at 8 PM Friday night, when the police suddenly grabbed them on the street.

- We were going home and we were trying to tell that to the policemen, but they were not listening. There was no-one around us, and there were no riots or fights going on. The men were handcuffed and transported into a big, dirty warehouse in the port area. There were already more than a hundred arrested persons, most of whom were Russian men.

- There were also many old and sick persons, because they must have been the easiest to catch. Less than a half of the whole group were real rioters. Most of them had been captured on the street without any explanation or reason. The people were very afraid. Lucas was held in custody for eight hours while his 65-year-old father Klaus was in custody for more than ten hours.

- Not once were we allowed to go to the toilet at night nor were we given anything to drink. I tried to smoke but got beaten for that. There we were sitting through the night with 200 other people but we were not allowed to talk to anyone or to move. If somebody tried to get up, he was kicked back to the ground. More than 40 policemen kept wandering around in the building to keep an eye on us, Lucas says. More than 800 people were arrested in Tallinn over the weekend.

TIIA RANTALAINEN

Bronze Soldier - Main

It does not state , which day it happened . During second day police warned publicly that no disobedience will be tolerated . So it could be that they did not hear / understood police orders and police did what they had to do . Zero tolerance was the keyword that night. And btw. , some house-owners got arrested at first night because they were standing on the street , protecting their windows from looters , police picked them up too. Some were really p!ssed about it.
On other side several Danish youths who had witnessed danish police emptying squatted house , commented that est.police had obviously tolerance limits x times higher than danish ones after witnessing the provocations against the police.
For some reason the web-page does not open
And the warehouse , yes the famous warehouse , where russias duma-delegation sniffed around dark corners and toilets looking for blood and guts . And it was actually quite comic when you have ex-director of FSB looking expertly for welding-marks in B.Soldiers erm... behind . Later it was stated that they will send over a delegation of smiths from Tula for closer examination. O tempora , o mores - years ago Sov. parliament wouldn´t have any trouble finding certified welders amongst MP-s ....
Slightly off-topic , but is Moscow city goverment going to re-name the street Est.embassy is , after the dead looter to Dmitri Ganin street?
I´m still waiting the nashists to compose a song for him , so that they would have their own ´´Horst-Wessel-Lied´´.... Damn, the similarities are striking...

Estonian police have detained persons suspected of attacking Russian citizen Dmitry Ganin, who died during riots in Tallinn on April 26-27. Authorities informed they are two young men with Estonian names Janek, 27 y.o. and Jaagu, 23 y.o. Curiously, initially the detained were reported as Russian-speaking. According to the court decision, they are arrested for the period of six months, although neither of them has been still charged with killing Ganin, law enforcement bodies investigate only participation suspected to beating killed. Reportedly, Janek and Jaagu are well-known Estonian skin-heads. Ganin, 20, was stabbed early in the morning on April 27. He was taken to hospital but died of his wounds 90 minutes later.

Read in Russian here :
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=765360
http://gzt.ru/incident/2007/05/14/114042.html

So, Braindead, are you still believing Russia is more like Nazi Germany?.. More than Estonia, for example?

So it proves that attacking Rock bar is more dangerous than attacking defenceless restraunts . The bar ´´Woodstock´´ was the only place the looters faced opposition . The fight went on between 20-30 bar clients and 500 looters for over an hour . It ended after looters threw in 2 Molotov cocktails. then defenders retreated to cellar.
´´Reportedly, Janek and Jaagu are well-known Estonian skin-heads´´ - well , you highlighted wrong part , it should have been reportedly.They were punks , not skinheads ,at least one of them seems to be ´´straight-punk´´ - a vegetarian, anti-fur etc. activist , other one construction worker (interestingly , just as the killed man was). And only (publicly admitted) evidence so far against them is that one of them is on surveillance camera tape him looking down to the wounded man , arguably to examine him.

And in this newspaper pic. you can see a russian ( http://www.postimees.ee/150507/esile...sed/260666.php ) , who arguably during a row with another man proclaimed that he was the one who killed Ganin . He is under investigation too. Well , he seems more skinhead to me than mohawk-haired punk. But if they were really the killers , then they will serve their time .
And finally - yes I definately believe that russia is definately veering towards next personality cult and dictatorship . Will it be a Stalinist or more Hitler-like or something else , I don´t know . But similarities exist - supression of free press , Nashists (I still don´t know are they more like Komsomol/Hitlerjugend - the next generation of leaders ; or more like hungveipings , who will be discarded after they´ve served their purpose) , nat.resources-blackmails , bullying neighbours . And don´t forget that it is Russia , where the Europe´s biggest skinhead movement is....
´´According to the information from law-enforcement agencies, there are about 15-20 thousand skinheads in Russia. About 5,000 of them conduct subversive activities in Moscow. The numbers are most likely underestimated: there are up to 50 thousand neonazis of various beliefs in Russia, which is equal to their quantity in the rest of the world. ´´ - Pravda , Russian skinheads lose massive fight to Asian men in Moscow metro - Pravda.Ru .

[[/B]

Well, punks or skinheads were Janek and Jaagu, but on the other hand, the thousands of awful horrible wild Russian hooligans and looters have killed nobody during their two-day riots. And only "bar defenders" used knife. Obviously this bar was an exeptional value for them as they decided to do that.

Postomees' site is not available for me, perhaps it's closed for Russian IPs.

As for Russian skinheads, there is a lot of them, that's true. But they are not representatives of society, they are the same as criminals (we have a high criminal level in Russia, especially in Moscow), corruption (we have a high level of corruption) and so on, the harmful reflections, no more. Russia is a very nationalistic country today, but at least our government doesn't use political provocations and support of radical nationalists of kind of so-called "National-bolshevik party" of mr.Limonov, who, by the way, had gone to prison for some times already. Our government doesn't act as a petty provocator, instigator of riots or initiator of social split. Your ambassador publically has called Ganin as "a looter". Has anyone seen him stealing goods? At least that's not very cleverly to say such words, being an ambassador, from my point of view. Especially before the investigation is ended.
Your prime-minister calls the Red Army soldiers, who were buried on this square, "drunken marauders", your ambassador names the killed young man "looter". Seems, Estonia's authorities are not looking how to improve their relations with Russia. They have their pleasure crying westward about terrible blackmailers.
Your foreign minister always repeats about Russian influence, Estonia is out of Russia's influence, we are free now and so on for many times. There is one Russian saying, approximate translation looks like : "Different people talk about different things and only lousy man about bath". That's about your foreign minister, seems.

Nashists? I have never seen any "nashist" alive, only on TV. Maybe these Nashi-members are bad people - I don't know, have nothing to say about that.

According to girlfriend of one of the punks , the police confiscated the kitchen knife , which was used to slice carrots and cabbage, probably because it was the biggest one in their home .They are not arrested because they had stabbed Ganin (at whose pockets stolen goods were found ) , but still suspect in beating of him amongst the mayhem . The peaceful protesters - on second day police confiscated backbags filled with stone (BTW, I was smoking on my window and saw a man in 20-s coming out of next house with a girl , carrying a bucket and filling it with stones on second night...) , many baseball bats , (self-protection?tear-gas? )gas balloons , hatchets , axes etc... these peaceful protesters flew traffic signs and manhole covers at police .
The newspaper could be blocked for russian IP-s , as some internet warfare is still going on . And is it wise from Russian media to call some suspects ´´well-known skinheads´´ , if it clearly shows that they cannot even be neutral and even get their names right (it´s Jaak, btw.). Your accusing us that we provoke a mess and next second turn to our mighty protectors for help , well what are the Notshnoi Dozor doing here now? Seems like that same M.O. exactly .
Improving the relations with Russia - as I´ve already said , our relations with Russia have nothing to do with real life , we´ve been with Latvia the ´´bad boys´´ in 1 - 1 1/2 year intervals , having nothing to do with real situations . We´ve had like 10-12 foreign ministers with different approaches , some quite Kremlin-friendly , but they all have thrown their hands in the end , claiming it is impossible to have something meaningful with russia .Every minor bureaucrat can hold off some diplomatic agreement for 10-s of years . Either it´s a bezobrazije or something more sinister . Basicly every foreign minister has said after 6-9 months that the ball is on Russian side now and we have to wait . We´ve had 3x at least ´´fresh start´´, with Russia-friendly foreign ministries .Guess nobody isn´t interested anymore , it´s simply waste of time . And speaking of current foreign minister - I´ve always thought of him as of grey figure , nothing much , but seems that man has some spine after all .
Russias foreign ministry , all other ministeries , the Duma - that is nothing . All real power lays in Presidential Administration. The official curating his ministry has more saying than the minister himself. So current situation simply shows Putin´s political will .
I thoroughly agree on Your thoughts about Skinheads . What a lousy rotten bunch .
Political extremists - well the whole thing started when on one 9th of May when People were celebrating the ´´freedom from opressors to all peoples in Europe and the world´´ and ONE man went there with our national flag. So you have elderly ladys spitting on him , young men kicking him , calling him fashist - for what ? http://www.postimees.ee/foto/1/6/355...263b055c_3.jpg . The police came and took him away. Maybe he is a provocateur , for walking around with national and state flag ? So there are places in your country where one can not take their flag? This is where all sh!t hit the fan .

Below is the man about I wrote before, the other suspected killer,

Originally Posted by braindead

if it clearly shows that they cannot even be neutral and even get their names right (it´s Jaak, btw.).

Do you think Russian newspapers invent Estonian names? They simply reprinted these names from the Postimees article. I self saw the name "Jaagu" in Postimees Russian-language version before it closed. And take a look at here: http://www.papa.ee/news.php?nid=333072 As far as I understand this is Estonian language? And this is "Jaagu" there. So, the Tallin edition printed these names, and almost all information in Russian media, including reports about skinheads, goes from the Postimees. Though observing this newspaper for only two days it seemed to me it often and easily changes its own reports and it prints conflicting informations, that looks strange at least.

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Do you think Russian newspapers invent Estonian names? They simply reprinted these names from the Postimees article. I self saw the name "Jaagu" in Postimees Russian-language version before it closed. And take a look at here: http://www.papa.ee/news.php?nid=333072 As far as I understand this is Estonian language? And this is "Jaagu" there. So, the Tallin edition printed these names, and almost all information in Russian media, including reports about skinheads, goes from the Postimees. Though observing this newspaper for only two days it seemed to me it often and easily changes its own reports and it prints conflicting informations, that looks strange at least.

- . this is translation mistake - Jaak , Jaagu , Jaaku = Jack , Jack´s etc. . Shame on Postimees . Point for you . Seems that Russian edition did not bother to translate correctly (or they do not speak the language ). The online edition´s are competing with news agencys for speed , so it is natural that they post for speed and later update it . I do not know is it on russian-version , but on Est.vers. the word ´´updated´´ can be seen quite clearly . It is the print version that is the final word. And the russian media makes quite big mistakes - like confusing geographical places with persons (claiming that Tõnismägi - (St.?)Antonius Hill is named after singer Tõnis Mägi )

And , First I´m quite seriously curious (and NOT ironic) , how would you see improving the relations between Rus. and Baltic states ?
There have been times when our foreign ministers have officially stated that we have only 2 rows with Russia , (these were mild and mellow times - 1. to get back from Kremlin´s Armoury Building our Presidential regalia ( http://www.ekspress.ee/fotodb/C1DEC053700A5782C22571F00069F5F8/$file/tn_eefv-6tuqmd.jpg ) , and 2. get back Tartu University´s collections from Voronezh University . 2 things and NO OTHER COMPLAINTS WHATSOEVER . And even these points of discussion were connected by Rus.Foreign Ministry with demands that were irrelevant and not connected to any political issues . Later turned out that Pres. regalia was embarrasingly enough not in condition to give it back , as many ruby´s from it were simply ´´missing´´. But to admit this took 9 YEARS and many bombardments from Kremlin ! And up to today only 2 est. museum workers have been allowed to examine it. How can you negotiate like this ? As Berkis said before very correctly , there is a whole generation , that has grown up under constant pressure from Russia and cannot even imagine what the normal relations with Russia could be. I´m 30 years old and cannot remember any time which we ´´had the ball´´.Mr. First , I´m not trying to irritate you or win some imaginary points but seriously interested , how you would see this. Looking for reply

Added : I´m the first to acknowledge that we´ve made plenty of stupid mistakes too , like our late president Meri who was negotiating with Yeltsin the leaving of Rus. troops and , irritated by boasting ,tipsy Yeltsin , shouted that ´´we´ve never wanted to live by you. You came here later and we simply have no place to go further. If it were possible to dig us free from Russias neighbourhood we´d done it centuries ago and sailed away!´´ . It reflects many Est.views , but was not probably a smart thing to say

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/nat...relations.html

I took the liberty by translating some passages from local newspapers (sorry for poor translation , it´s quite late ):

Editorial , Eesti Ekspress , 17.05.07.
Pusher vs. Puller

On this Friday in Samara EU-Russias meeting will start . EU-s leaders have plenty of themes to discuss with Russia. But on the other hand it is clash of opposites.
EU was created on continent weary of war to prevent new conflicts. Today EU is one of the synonyms (sp.?)of welfare . It is a guarantee of free and prosperous life for it´s citizens .EU is like a gravity center , to which newcomers want to attach . And thousands of immigrants risk with their lives to get there .
On closer inspection numerous ills appear on shiny surface , but they do not affect the big picture much.
On the other hand almost everybody close to Russia tries to escape from it. At first former ´´allies´´ or WP. Then Baltic states and former republics eroded away. As geographicly there is nowhere to go , they have decided to distance from their former master politically. And success and welfare is closest to them , who were most commited to escaping Russias sphere of influence .
Of course this has been noticed by russians too . On this week ´´Noviye Izvestia´´ compared Russia to besieged island . Politologist Dmitri Oreshkin acknowledges that Russia lacks economical power to make it center of attraction .´´Citizens of former Sov.republics want to have the living standard of Germany , and not living standard of Smolensk .´´ ---- _----
One of the main reasons on collapse of Sov.Union was the problem of country being able to send spaceships to orbit the Earth , but not to provide it´s people with freezers, vacuum cleaners , oranges and underwear.
Of course Russia desires to be economics-superpower , whose protection is desirable . Of course people in Russia wish to live freely and in prosperity as in EU or USA , that passpor of Russia would open them just as much boreders withoutvisas as for citizens of Europe . But sad story is that Pres.Putin has not much to show to his people .
It is logical that Moscow cannot allow to let the 1945 slip out focus . No wonder , that 1 million estonians are being presented to 150 million russians as dangerous enemies . It is much easier than to explain to your people (with elections coming) why after 60 years from Victory people in Smolensk still live in poverty compared to Berlin .

Following are some snippets from an interview with Ilmari Susiluoto . He is an Russia-expert in University of Helsinki´s Aleksanteri Institute , adivisor to Finnish presidents Koivisto and Ahtisaari , PhD in State Justice (Govermental Justice? )
What Russia wants from Estonia ?
Russia today is afraid of new Europe , especially Poland but Bulgaria , Czech , Balkan and Baltic states as well. Moscow´s fear is that these countries will tilt EU against Russia. EU-s aim is to attract Russia into Europe. Russia´s aim is opposite. Moscow tries to maneuver into position , where she can open or close the gas valves according to her needs.
Russia´s goal is to rise into energitsheskaja superderzhava - superpower of energy. Russia defines herself today with words suverennaja demokratia- sovreign democracy. They understood it so that they are and must be independent from other world.
What does this democracy mean ?
laughing Democracy was passing phenomenon . Let me give you an example .3 years ago I talked with superior of MVD units of Tver oblast . We talked about Karelian minority , many of who´m live in Tver , and I asked him , how do the russian authorities view them. And this fellow said to me : the most important thing is that they would be afraid of us! Moscow wants to be afraid . This is the crux . And this not only applies to foreign countries but to it´s own citizens.
How is Moscow making politics ?
In my opinion Moscow does not see EU as Union , but as only 3 countries : Germany , France and UK . Moscow will take one country at time and deals with it personally . This is an characteristic line that can be followed through Russias history.
In 1939-40 Sov.Unionm dealt one-by-one with germans, french and english. By separating them Stalin reached his goals .
And now is the Baltic Sea pipeline the issue ?
Yes, this is big political question. Russia plans to guard this 24h. . If this pipeline goes through Finnish, Swedish or Est. sea borders , then Russia sees legitimate right to send in Baltic Fleet in case of any mishap.
-------
What is the current state of Russias economy ?
(laughing)One thing is to watch Russias oil companies stock. I wouldn´t count on it. '
Russia lacks sustainable infrastructure . Gas and oil-industries would need huge investments for modernization. Some companies ahve done it , others not . And I´m talking about the core of Rus.economy , the one that brings in the money.
What about infrastructure ?
Sov. citys were built mostly on 60-s to 980-s . We know what was the building quality of Brezhnev-era. That applies to pipes, drainage , roads , everything . Moscow still can maintain it , Peterburg too , some other place maybe too. But in whole Russia it is impossible. The sums needed to overhaul it are mind-blowing .Russia has no such money.
But what about the gas and oil money ?
Russias leadership has decided to give this money to Ministries of Internal Affairs and Defence. Social department has got nothing . Presidential administration has paid minor sums to teachers and nurses . This is political manipulation , to show the people how good the president is.
What would happen if the price of oil or gas should fall on world markets ?
This would be total catastropy to Russia .Then it is the EU who will have to help out to keep the society together.

end of snippets . Hope it was worth it , I spent lot of time typing . Sorry about typos , perhaps some misinterpretations or something like this . It is 01.07 AM and I´m off to sleep.
Ray - I do not know is it any help , but at least some other view on topic. Seems that russia has again chosen the same road as old Sov.Union . Like in old Sov.era joke - What god applies to Sov.Union best ? Cupid - naked , but armed to the teeth .