Band Of Sisters - Army "Lionesses" Hit Streets With marines In Combat

**Julie** · 19 Dec 04, 01:06

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

I recall it was fiction...

It was, but since I can't get one good comment from you about a woman in combat, here is an excerpt from an article just for you...so, read it and weep sweetie:

The Expanding Role of GI Jane

Currently, women make up about 15 percent of the US armed forces - a proportion that's nearly doubled since 1980 and is up by a third since the last Gulf War. More than 90 percent of service positions are open to women. And though women remain barred from about 30 percent of active-duty positions including Special Forces and frontline ground-combat roles - the front lines, it now seems, are everywhere: With guerrilla fighting and supply lines that snake through the sand, a medic careening over the desert in her canvas-topped Humvee can be as vulnerable as a young private crouched in Baghdad with his M-16.

Such a system made less sense as warfare changed and the definition of "front lines" disintegrated. Now, says Laura Miller, an expert on gender and the military at RAND, "we don't necessarily have a clear line in the sand. And with longdistance missiles, people in the rear are in danger, too. It's strategically advantageous to take out supply lines and communications centers - which is where women are more concentrated. Nobody's really safe."

Women soldiers headed toward Baghdad with the Army's 3rd Infantry Division shared their stories with the Monitor.

Lt. Sarah Fritts-

Lt. Sarah Fritts heard the first cracks of AK-47 machine-gun rounds targeting her Kiowa scout helicopter as she flew low over the central Iraqi city of As Samawah. Scanning the ground only 60 feet below, she saw a crowd of Iraqi civilians lining the banks of the Euphrates.

"Half the people were waving at us, and the others were shooting out of their homes, so it was a bad mix," recalls Lieutenant Fritts, a platoon leader with the 3rd Squadron of the 3rd Infantry Division's 7th Cavalry, known as the 3-7 Cav. "All along the river, fire was coming out of home after home."

Up ahead, another Kiowa crew spotted an Iraqi jumping out of a car with an AK-47 and running into a building. An attack on the building was ordered, and Fritts and the other pilots zeroed in with their rockets, completely flattening the structure.

It was the first combat of the war for Fritts and her platoon, but when she landed, she discovered that her reaction to the fighting was completely different from that of her male comrades.

"Everyone was like, 'Yeah, get them'' and I was having trouble with that really aggressive attitude," she recalls. "People were saying, 'Yeah, let's go level that whole area.' And I was saying, 'There's no reason to go level 50 homes' - it just wasn't necessary."

Indeed, in a break between missions on the route to Baghdad, Fritts said that while she's proud to be one of only two women pilots with the 3-7th Cavalry, her life on the front lines has been distinctly different from that of the men around her.

"There are some things that set me apart," says the West Point graduate from Portland, Ore.

The granddaughter of a World War II B-17 pilot, Fritts has wanted to fly helicopters since she was a freshman in high school. After West Point, she attended flight school, where less than 10 percent of her classmates were women. Now, she proudly wears the Cavalry's signature black Stetson with gold tassels that she keeps behind the seat of her Kiowa, nicknamed "Drunken Monkey."

Male colleagues treat her with respect, she says, even though she knows some of them disagree with policies allowing women to serve in military jobs traditionally reserved for men. "The guys are very professional, so they put aside their personal feelings," she says.

But Fritts has realized that as the lone woman, she will not enjoy the kind of lifelong bonds forged in combat by the men in her platoon. "A lot of the guys get their best buddies from within the troop, so they can really let go and be themselves. But my best friends are women, and they aren't here, so the guys won't really know me the same way," she says.

Practical problems in western Iraq's flat terrain, such as finding a spot to change clothes or go to the bathroom, also separate Fritts from the men. So does a disinclination to join in with the men's lewd banter and crude jokes.

As an officer, Fritts has had to make a conscious effort to change the language she uses with her male subordinates - eliminating niceties. "Guys are more direct. Instead of asking them to do things, I have to tell them, without saying 'Please' or 'Thanks.' That's what they expect."

Fritts sees herself as a trailblazer, and as she witnesses firsthand the strict segregation of women in Iraq, she feels particularly gratified that American women can serve in combat. Still, she believes that combat fields, such as armor and artillery, should be opened up to women who have the physical strength to do those jobs.

Fritts doesn't relish the danger of her work. "Every time I go up, I expect to get shot at," she says, admitting that only her training allows her to overcome the fear and confusion of combat.

But she rejects, on principle, the idea that a public aversion to placing women in harm's way should bar her from the front lines. "Why should I not be allowed to do something I want to do because some guy lying on a couch watching TV feels uncomfortable seeing me dragged through the street?" she says. "I don't see why a woman's life is so much more important than a man's life," she says. "For a woman to gain full citizenship, she should be able to die for her country."

Some women believe that more ground-combat roles should be open to them: As long as they can lift and load the rounds, they say, women should be allowed to command tanks and artillery platoons. Women, after all, perform crucial jobs men cannot - frisking Iraqi females for hidden weapons at checkpoints, or entering rooms reserved for women in Muslim societies. Congress lifted the ban on women serving on combat ships after the first Gulf War, and the Pentagon did away with its "risk rule," which outlined where women could and couldn't serve, according to the likelihood of enemy contact.

http://ms101.mysearch.com/jsp/GGcres...rchfor=GI+Jane

Another good read: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...4619-5345r.htm

**Bill** · 19 Dec 04, 05:36

Is there some point you are trying to make with your touchy-feely article that hasn't already been covered?

I/we(the we list impressively including a General, a Light Colonel, a Captian, and a sprinkling of NCOs from several nations armed forces) already stated quite clearly why i/we dont think women belong in the combat arms, this article addresses none of the reasons i/we listed.

Serving in uniform, or in combat, is not a right...though it can hardly be called a privelidge. It is survival of the fittest in it's most brutal form, and the weak link can and WILL get the whole chain killed. The FEBA is no fuckking place for a social experiment.

""Why should I not be allowed to do something I want to do because some guy lying on a couch watching TV feels uncomfortable seeing me dragged through the street?" she says. "I don't see why a woman's life is so much more important than a man's life," she says. "For a woman to gain full citizenship, she should be able to die for her country.""

It has nothing to do with 'oh gee, i want to serve in the front lines', it has everything to do with YOU CAN'T HANG LADY.

As OOE stated previously, Infantry service has been fully open to Canadian females for over a decade(IIRC), and despite LOWERED standards and females making up 23% of all Canadian recruits NOT A SINGLE FEMALE HAS QUALIFIED FOR DUTY IN A LIGHT INFANTRY UNIT.

Know why it's called 'light' infantry?

Because there are NO vehicles for the line units. Everything you own and fight with you carry on your back.

My combat load when i was inserted into Panama was nearly 200lbs(i ought to list it item by item just to show you the enormity of a light infantrymans load, but im too lazy to type all that...it is a very long list).

Ever finger-tip crawled 2km with a 200lb load in 120 degree heat in a long sleeve uniform under a ghilli suit?

It's freaking lovely, i tell you.

I'd love to meet that Kiowa pilot on a Parade ground and take her for a nice cross country road march with full pack and gear(and i dont mean no REMF pack, im talking Ranger Rucks, full light infantry combat load including weapons and ammunition).
Those damned pilots wouldn't know PT if it marched right up and bit them on the ass.

Women want to be pilots, fine(i have doubts about their ability to effectively E&E, but that's hardly my problem so i could care less really). Women want to be truck drivers, fine. Women want to be clerks, medics, nurses, cryptographers, etc, etc, etc....go for it.

The reason i dont want women in the Combat arms is because point blank they will get our people killed in combat.

Take away all the sugar coating, and we dont want women in the Combat arms because 99+% of YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH, and it's simply not worth the monkey business, expense, and hassle to weed out the 1% of you that are..

And when you cut through all the nonsense- it comes down to us and them facing off with bayonets fixed, and i can tell you right now if you've got a vagina you don't want to be between an infantryMAN and his objective in such a scenario.

All you women that think you're tough, go into a bar tonight, pick out a nice average sized guy, walk up, and punch him dead in the mouth.

See what happens to you...

Cause compared to facing an armed and hardened grunt HTH that's CHILD'S PLAY.

According to FBI statistics, unarmed women that face an unarmed assault from a man are unable to defend themselves over 99% of the time. That's a fact, it's incontrovertible, and you ladies are just going to have to deal with the reality of the situation.

Compared to a US Combat Infantrymen, most felons are pussies.

The best part of all this is the women are like 'oh, we dont need to be protected, we can serve on the front lines', but they're too stupid or selfish to realize we dont want them there because WE dont want to get killed cause THEY cant hack it.

**-{SpoonmaN}-** · 19 Dec 04, 06:14

Sniper, why the hell were you wearing a long-sleeved uniform in Panama anyway?
Regardless, precisely how often did you come up against an oponent and have to fight them when you were unarmed? Also, sure women may find it tough to serve in un-mechanized infantry units, but what about mechanized infantry units?

**Bill** · 19 Dec 04, 06:28

I was wearing a long sleeve BDU for several reasons:

1) It is our uniform
2) It blends in with jungle terrain much better than my lily white Scots-Irish complexion
3) So i didn't get FUCKKING SHOT.

Make sense?

"Regardless, precisely how often did you come up against an oponent and have to fight them when you were unarmed?"

How often does a fighter plane need an ejection seat? If the answer is 'rarely', should we stop putting them in fighters?
There have been numerous HTH encounters in Iraq.
In vietnam they were commonplace.

I don't usually talk about the things i saw as a general rule, but because it's relevant, i will relate something i saw firsthand in Panama.

When we went into Panama city the PDF DIGBATS(Dignity Battalions) were doing there best impersonation of the Mongol horde. They were running about armed mainly with sidearms and melee weapons killing Noriegas political opponents house to house. They weren't sparing anyone, and were killing whole families off.
I was in an overlook position covering a US infantry platoon on patrol, and from around a street corner one of these DIGBAT scumbags(armed with a machette) came charging out at a squad of US Troops who were arrayed in a rolling skirmish line, securing the top end of the street for follow-on squads that were clearing the block. The closest US troop was an M-60 gunner who was probably 10 feet from the corner the DIGBAT charged out from. The DIGBAT covered the distance in about 1 second, and took a big wild swing at the US soldier before i could squeeze off a round(i was about 500 meters away).
Didn't work out too well for the DIGBAT. The Pig gunner deflected the blow with the barrel of his M-60 and pumped about 50-60 rounds into the scumbag from point blank range. If the 60 gunner had missed the block he'd have been seriously F'ed. He didn't miss.

"Also, sure women may find it tough to serve in un-mechanized infantry units, but what about mechanized infantry units?"

I'd sure love to see a woman sling a 4.2" or 120mm mortar baseplate(about 350-400lbs) onto the side of a track, or manhandle a trackpin into place with a sledgehammer. Watching a woman try to operate the charging lever on an M-2 or for that matter hand it up to the TC on the turret would be a lot of fun to behold.

The M-2 weighs approx. 126lbs unloaded and requires about 60lbs of force to charge(i'd type C O C K but it gets **** out).

**Bill** · 19 Dec 04, 06:47

I will say this.

ANY US PSYOPS that are aimed at enemy men should ALWAYS be run by women.

**Veni Vidi Vici** · 19 Dec 04, 21:22

Snipe, You are totaly incapable to concive that there are women in the world who can match men in physical brute strength. Yes they are the minority by far but they still do exist. I agree that they should not lower physical standards for women to get in to combat roles but women should still be given an equal chance. And wether or not you like it women will be able in the very near future to do all the jobs men can do.

**Officer of Engineers** · 19 Dec 04, 21:25

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici

I agree that they should not lower physical standards for women to get in to combat roles but women should still be given an equal chance.

That's the point we're trying to say. There is no such thing as an equal chance. Women are not men and to insert them into men's roles, you have to do alot of adjusting from both the women side and the men side. For the few women who will pass the muster, the effort is not cost-effective and extremely frustrating.

**Veni Vidi Vici** · 19 Dec 04, 21:57

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

That's the point we're trying to say. There is no such thing as an equal chance. Women are not men and to insert them into men's roles, you have to do alot of adjusting from both the women side and the men side. For the few women who will pass the muster, the effort is not cost-effective and extremely frustrating.

Its not that I don't see your point it is just that I feel that as a woman I have as much right (providing I am able) to take up arms for my country as a man does. I do understand your point and would probobly agree with you if I wern't a woman,however.

**Bill** · 19 Dec 04, 23:05

"Snipe, You are totaly incapable to concive that there are women in the world who can match men in physical brute strength."

I stated they existed. I said 99%+ of women were incapable, i did not say 100%.

Marion Jones(then again she is on the juice), Michelle Yao, probably the Williams sisters(who are probably on juice too), some of the female triatheletes...

They're just EXTREMELY rare is all. So rare, that they'd be totally cost inneffective to find.

**Bill** · 19 Dec 04, 23:07

"And wether or not you like it women will be able in the very near future to do all the jobs men can do"

Why, because you said so?

If women are to serve in the infantry, i'd actually have very little problems with it IF they were in segregated units.

Then the unit could prove through it's performance in trianing exercizes what it was capable of, and be used accordingly, WITHOUT the utterly unneccessary morale, discipline, and medical complications of integrating them.

**Bill** · 19 Dec 04, 23:09

"Its not that I don't see your point it is just that I feel that as a woman I have as much right (providing I am able) to take up arms for my country as a man does."

YOU DO UNDERSTAND THERE IS NO RIGHT TO SERVE IN THE ARMED FORCES DON'T YOU????

THE RIGHT DOES NOT EXIST FOR ANYONE.

And i for one am not about to start inventing 'rights' so people can feel good about themselves.

**Julie** · 20 Dec 04, 01:41

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"Snipe, You are totaly incapable to concive that there are women in the world who can match men in physical brute strength."

I stated they existed. I said 99%+ of women were incapable, i did not say 100%.

Marion Jones(then again she is on the juice), Michelle Yao, probably the Williams sisters(who are probably on juice too), some of the female triatheletes...

They're just EXTREMELY rare is all. So rare, that they'd be totally cost inneffective to find.

One of the links I posted on page one is that the Pentagon may be considering putting women on the front lines since the shortage of male troops are becoming an issue. Since the extremely rare qualified women is so hard to find, and the male troop quota is dwindling, why not pump the women "full of juice" and send them to the front? May sound ludicrous, but psychologically speaking, makes sense. It would fix the brawn in the women problem, the women would be happy, and would have a reverse effect on the men to stay and fight instead of whimping out. At least until someone could replace Rumsfeld that has a better plan.

**Bill** · 20 Dec 04, 02:20

I dont know how much 'juice' would fix the brawn problem. I have little doubt i could kick the living snot out of Venus Williams in a fight.

About as bad as she'd smoke me on a tennis court i imagine(which is REALLY bad).

LOL

Kidding aside, i doubt you'll gain any political support for pumping female troops full of illegal narcotics and steroids.

Another note on kidding aside, i wouldn't want to have to fight Michelle Yoeh(or however you spell it) in a melee. That would be way bad for me i'm sure. Of course 20yrs of training 12 hours a day to fight, and ANYONE should be able to fight extremely well.

What men are 'wimping out' exactly?

And what'd be wrong with a segregated female infantry unit? If the whole unit is equally limited in capability then there will be no stragglers, no morale problems(which would be a HUGE problem integrating the females into male infantry units), and the Army would have a good feel for what useful roles they could fill based on their performance at NTC and in other training organizations.

I say we knock down all the barriers, starting with sports. I want to see a woman WR come across the middle vs. Brian Dawkins in the NFL.
I want to see a female HB power through the hole on a run when John Lynch steps up to fill.
I want to see a female linebacker step up and fill a hole vs. Jerome Bettis on a 4th and 1.
I want to see Dawn Staley try to stop an Iverson cross-over dribble or a Shaquille O'neill low post power dunk.
I want to see a female baseball player try to hit a 105mph fastball from Randy Johnson, or a female catcher try to block homeplate when a speedy 220lb man running a 4.3sec 40yd dash lowers his shoulder to score.
I want to see a female Right winger swoop in along the boards and take a hit from Scott Stevens against the glass. I want to see a female Defense'person' win a scrum behind the net vs Petr Forsberg or try to knock Jaromir Jagr off the puck...

Oh, and women will never be happy, it's not in their nature.

**Julie** · 20 Dec 04, 02:42

How many of those athletes above-mentioned have ever taken steroids during their athletic career? All of them maybe? Truth ever be known, how outstanding are they really?

**Bill** · 20 Dec 04, 02:56

The NFL tests extensively for steroids, and anyone who ever took a look at the physiques of Randy Johnson or allen iverson or shaq would never make the claim that they juice.

It's blatantly obvious when someone is juicing. Just look at a pic of barry bonds now, and one of him 10yrs ago. Or a picture of Marion Jones now, or 5yrs ago.

Marion and Bonds are OBVIOUSLY juiced players, and for that matter, so was Mark McGuire.

You can tell when a player is juiced, all you have to do is look at the before and after pictures. People don't just mysteriously double their muscle mass without steroids, it don't happen.

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