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Thread: South China Sea Developments and Thoughts

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    South China Sea Developments and Thoughts

    Shut up! China tells US in growing sea dispute | Inquirer Global Nation

    Shut up! China tells US in growing sea dispute
    Philippine Daily Inquirer
    3:50 am | Tuesday, August 7th, 2012

    BEIJING—“Shut up!”

    This was China’s retort to the United States after the US Department of State issued a statement last Friday expressing concern over increased tensions in the South China (West Philippine) Sea and criticizing Beijing for establishing a new city and military garrison on an island in the contested waters.
    US: China garrison raises tension in disputed sea
    US: China garrison raises tension in disputed sea

    Originally published: August 3, 2012 10:38 AM
    Updated: August 3, 2012 1:28 PM
    By The Associated Press MATTHEW PENNINGTON (Associated Press)

    WASHINGTON - (AP) -- The United States on Friday criticized China's new military garrison in the contested South China Sea as risking an escalation in tensions.

    The State Department statement underscored U.S. concerns about the situation in the resource-rich sea, a potential flashpoint. It voiced strong support for diplomatic efforts by Southeast Asian nations to negotiate with China, the region's rising military power which claims virtually all of the sea for itself and would prefer Washington stay out of the matter.

    The Senate on Thursday also urged restraint among China and five of its neighbors and said the U.S. was committed to assisting Southeast Asian nations remaining "strong and independent."

    Washington's response comes 10 days after China formally established Sansha city on a remote island 220 miles from its southernmost province. Sansha is intended to administer hundreds of thousands of square miles of water where China wants to strengthen its control over disputed and potentially oil-rich islands. The Philippines, a U.S. treaty ally, has described China's move as unacceptable. Vietnam called it a violation of international law.


    China’s state-controlled media lashed out at the United States on Monday, accusing Washington of “trouble making” over criticism of Beijing’s claims to a wide swath of the disputed sea.
    My thoughts go in the odd direction of wondering how fruitful would the payoff be were China to enforce its' claim. Lets say by force with everyone ignoring it more or less by action. Gains don't really seem that large since if there are oil/gas deposits far from infrastructure in the middle of the sea next to isles their present value in development wouldn't be worth it. Geo-politically it seems like a great idea to create a buffer, except if its a permeable one where nobody really cares for it kinda creates a situation where real borders may be skirted when they may.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southea.../NH08Ae01.html

    China bares claws in maritime dispute
    By Ian Storey

    For more than two decades Beijing has pursued a consistent policy in the South China Sea composed of two main elements: gradually strengthening the country's territorial and jurisdictional claims while at the same time endeavoring to assure Southeast Asian countries of its peaceful intentions. Recent moves by China to bolster its maritime claims have brought the first element into sharp relief, while reassurances of benign intent have, however, been in short supply.
    Earlier, in late June, China's Defense Ministry announced it had begun "combat ready" patrols in the Spratly Islands to "protect national sovereignty and [China's] security development interests". Embarrassingly for the Chinese navy, however, on July 13, one of its frigates ran aground on Half Moon Shoal, 70 nautical miles west of the Philippine island of Palawan and within the Philippines 200-mile exclusive economic zone (EEZ). The frigate was re-floated within 24 hours, suggesting that other Chinese naval vessels were nearby when the incident occurred. These developments provide further evidence of the growing militarization of the dispute.
    On the issue of ownership of Scarborough Shoal, scene of a tense standoff between Chinese and Philippine fishery-protection vessels in May and June, China's position remains uncompromising. At the annual ASEAN Regional Forum (ARF) in Phnom Penh in July, Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi restated China's sovereignty claims to the shoal, rejected the notion that it was disputed and accused Manila of "making trouble".

    According to the Philippine Foreign Ministry, Chinese trawlers - protected by Chinese paramilitary vessels - continue to fish in waters close to Scarborough Shoal in contravention of a bilateral accord whereby both sides agreed to withdraw their vessels. [1]
    I think this pushes Russia and Japan to peace talks since the latter will find it more plausable and beneficial to re-orient itself to align with Vietnam/Phillipines etc... but to some degree can't due to the dispute up north. My guess is they will get two islands the little ones to the right and Russia will maintain the two big ones to keep the territorial waters enclosed in Okhotsk for nuclear deterrence. Probably a percentage of oil and gas blocks to make it more palatable in various areas for token investments.

    The other point is that since ASEAN has been sabotaged due to Cambodia blocking the resolution. It forces things to be bi-lateral between China and every other country ONLY until those countries simply negotiate ex-China their territorial disputes and then present a united front which can happen and increases its' likelihood. The stupidity of the situation ofcourse is that trade becomes the next battleground of retaliation since political means were exhausted to a degree and with military influences rising it only stands to reason economic levers will be yanked by various sides where they have leverage.

    http://www.atimes.com//atimes/Japan/NH07Dh01.html

    China, Japan stretch peace pacts
    By Kosuke Takahashi

    TOKYO - Asia's two giants, China and Japan, are playing a dangerous game, each indicating they are prepared to use force in defense of islands they both claim as their own.
    Last edited by cyppok; 08 Aug 12, at 07:53.
    Originally from Sochi, Russia.

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    Harsh words over the South China Sea « IISS Voices

    The article was in fact a protest at a US Department of State statement the day before, and followed a busy month for observers of the South China Sea. That US statement criticised China’s creation in late July of a new prefecture-level city administration for all of the islands in the South China Sea. The city authority, based on Woody Island in the disputed Paracel Islands, is named Sansha and has all the trappings of any average Chinese city: a mayor, a municipal people’s congress and, somewhat more controversially, a military garrison.

    The garrison does not necessarily mean a great increase in military equipment on the 2.5 sq km Woody Island (called Yongxing in China and Phu Lam in Vietnam). China already maintains a military presence on the island, sustained by a 2.7 km airstrip (pictured above) built in 1990 and three artificial harbours on the island’s west. But it does add another layer of military bureaucracy to the region, with the garrison subordinate to the Hainan Military Command, rather than the South Sea Fleet to which the current Paracel Islands detachment reports.

    Beijing has designated Sansha as an administrative centre for both the Paracel Islands (also claimed by Vietnam and Taiwan) and the Spratly Islands (to which the Philippines and others partially lay claim). Manila, which objects to Sansha, is in negotiations with Japan to acquire 12 patrol boats by 2014 for its coast guard, as it aims to bolster its frankly derisory maritime capabilities. The Philippine Navy accepted the second of two former US Coast Guard cutters in May this year.

    The Philippines also offered three new contracts for hydrocarbon exploration in the Spratlys area in late July (following 12 offered in April), two of them in waters disputed with China.

    In June, China had invited overseas firms to tender for blocks in waters claimed by Vietnam, including waters that are already being explored by India’s ONGC Videsh in Block 128. ONGC confirmed in July that it would continue to explore in the block after Vietnam offered more favourable terms.
    I find it odd that China expects divide and negotiate to work. It might short term but long term Vietnam and other hold outs will shun the asymmetric bargaining position and simply bargain by performing actions like ignoring whatever lines China draws in the waters of the Sea. I find it odd that asking for the moon and expecting full compliance is the actual strategy while strengthening enforcement over those whom don't accept the border of the sea, which is initially everyone. Long term this is simply unsustainable unless it is enforced militarily or accepted by other members of the Pacific (which won't happen it seems even if it is enforced militarily at least in the case of Vietnam). Which seems to never recognize Chinese sovereignty over the islands.

    The offer of the blocks for oil explorations where Vietnamese oil derricks and exploration is already ongoing seems a bit absurd but also desperate.


    Long term I am curious a bit at the thoughts on the leadership angle here. Is it really so risk-less to push world opinion and weaker nations for phantom oil and sea wealth (non Vietnamese sea zones at least). I could understand a step by step push of contention where by one nation recognizes something they dislike because of circumstances but to create it on avery avenue at the same time is a bit peculiar.

    http://www.jamestown.org/programs/chinabrief/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=37776&tx_ttnews[backPid]=25&cHash=4f6ca6e9c397f15fd4c0e0d48ea06e1c

    There is little sign China will back down on its maritime territorial claims or postpone settling them indefinitely. Asked about Beijing’s readiness to set disputes with rival claimants such as Japan, Vietnam, and the Philippines aside for the sake of joint resource development, Yin observes that "‘table disputes and develop jointly’ is prefaced with ‘sovereignty is mine.’" In the Senkaku/Diaoyutai dispute in particular, "there is room for neither negotiations nor compromise" since Tokyo "violated an unwritten agreement" with U.S. connivance "and challenged China’s rights." As he notes, China does "not desire to resolve island disputes through military means nor we wish to disturb the external environment" [8]. Nor does he unequivocally rule out a trial of arms should "ocean problems" in the near seas prove intractable.
    I was reading this and a very simple thought occurred to me, if you militarize the dispute does the shipping premium not kick in? Is there no realization that if push came to shove and you militarized the dispute and it became an ongoing push for sovereignty there are other payments you have to make other than military that you have to suffer as a nation.

    If you are stronger than me in every way and your weakness is trade would it not make sense to kick you where it would hurt you the most? sure it may hurt me as well but if I have more flexibility as a nation to bear that pain wouldn't it make sense to do so?
    It seems China is in the position of Japan in 1939 or so when U.S. stopped exporting oil to it and it declared war in retaliation. Granted the U.S. is not an oil exporter at this point but other nations may behave similarly, perhaps in other commodities China needs. Granted I doubt if they stopped getting copper or iron ore from Australia they would go to war but belligerence would most likely increase. Temporal (Time) flexibility vis a vis economic aspects for China seems to have become lower and lower.
    Originally from Sochi, Russia.

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    I don't really understand WTH you are talking about. But if you think China thinks as Japan did back in 1939 you need to keep your day job.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyppok View Post
    It seems China is in the position of Japan in 1939 or so when U.S. stopped exporting oil to it and it declared war in retaliation. Granted the U.S. is not an oil exporter at this point but other nations may behave similarly, perhaps in other commodities China needs. Granted I doubt if they stopped getting copper or iron ore from Australia they would go to war but belligerence would most likely increase. Temporal (Time) flexibility vis a vis economic aspects for China seems to have become lower and lower.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    I don't really understand WTH you are talking about. But if you think China thinks as Japan did back in 1939 you need to keep your day job.
    A bit harsh?

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    In 1939 or even earlier Japan was looking to re-assert itself after reforms and modernizations of its' economy. A lot of it was focused on securing resources in lands around it to make sure its future potential is realized.

    China is actually in a very similar geopolitical position, except it could buy access since those resources are not colonially or corporately controlled in quiet a few of those nations. In essence they are militarily resurgent precisely to make sure their future potential is not hampered by lack of commodity access. Even the South China sea is put forth first as a shipping, and commodity development hub.

    Right now we are simply at the beginning of the assertive stance...

    P.S. China does limit rare earth exports(based on needs on political outlooks) and fears others doing same in areas that affect it.
    Last edited by cyppok; 12 Aug 12, at 12:03.
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    Originally from Sochi, Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Native View Post
    A bit harsh?
    Not at all. China in 2012 and Japan in 1939 are facing drastically different challenges, having totally different resources. And in general, these two countries are in completely different trajectories.

    What's to compare? He's just channeling Fareed Zakaria who stole from the internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyppok View Post
    In 1939 or even earlier Japan was looking to re-assert itself after reforms and modernizations of its' economy. A lot of it was focused on securing resources in lands around it to make sure its future potential is realized.

    China is actually in a very similar geopolitical position, except it could buy access since those resources are not colonially or corporately controlled in quiet a few of those nations. In essence they are militarily resurgent precisely to make sure their future potential is not hampered by lack of commodity access. Even the South China sea is put forth first as a shipping, and commodity development hub.

    Right now we are simply at the beginning of the assertive stance...

    P.S. China does limit rare earth exports(based on needs on political outlooks) and fears others doing same in areas that affect it.
    except you forgot those resource are mainly use for manufacture goods and export to US, europe etc. any conflict will disrupt this, thus hurt the global economy. todays world is different than 1939 japan, everything is about globlism now, and china is 2nd in economy. back in 1939, japan don't export or import from US like china-us today. today china is THE largest trading partner to US/europe/others etc. china has no intention to invade any countries mainland for its resource, they use $$$$ to buy off the resource they need, instead bullet, which is much efficent way to do it. i doubt any resource export country want to stop the in-flow of those $$$.

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    china has no intention to invade any countries mainland for its resource, they use $$$$ to buy off the resource they need, instead bullet, which is much efficent way to do it. i doubt any resource export country want to stop the in-flow of those $$$.
    Well, this is true but always subject to change. China is building up its military at a rapid pace and claiming territory throughout the south china sea. There is always a first time to use the bullet. Perhaps it will happen one day so China can take over some gas field in the south china sea while demonstrating its new found military strength to its neighbours.

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    Alaska’s fleet of F-22 fighter jets and their elite pilots have been deployed to an airbase in the Pacific U.S. territory of Guam, according to officials at Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson in Anchorage. The deployment has been planned for some time, but happens to coincide with a period of escalating tension in the Pacific Theater, as Japan and China dispute who has the rights to a set of uninhabited, resource-rich islands.
    Alaska F-22s deployed to Pacific even as tensions escalate between China, Japan | Alaska Dispatch


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    Chinese Strategic Miscalculations in the South China Sea


    China’s unilateral claims of sovereignty over the years to the South China Sea has made the majority of Chinese citizenry mistakenly believe that China does indeed own the entire area within the U-shaped line and that the line makes up China’s southern border.

    However, newly discovered maps in 1904 dating from the Qing Dynasty do not show the Paracel and Spratlys Islands. Instead, it is Hainan Island that is depicted as China’s southern most border. Unfortunately, this U-shaped line is now very much like a bone in China’s throat that it cannot swallow or remove.
    http://www.eastwestcenter.org/sites/...te/apb_181.pdf


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

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    Sir,

    Qing Maps also showed Afghanistan, Mongolia, Korea, and Siberia as part of their empire. Obviously, no Chinese citizen today can lay claim to those lands.
    Chimo

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    Colonel,

    It is not about Chinese citizen. It is the CPC desire to prove to the common Chinese that they alone have kept the Chinese prestige and everyone and earlier regimes before them were weak kneed and useless.

    As China grows stronger, the claims will come.

    Earlier they were merely on maps.

    Slowly they are getting more 'persuasive'.

    Even Pakistan had to cede Shaksgam Valley to China even though the Amir had control over the area.

    In fact, China claimed Hunza Province of Northern Area of Pakistan as theirs, but have now soft pedaled on that after Shaksgam was given to them.
    Last edited by Ray; 29 Sep 12, at 20:32.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

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    Sir,

    Please bear with me. I don't know if I'm making sense. This is the 3rd time I tried to write this. I am just going to let this one stay.

    I see your point but I truly wonder. China, at the moment, is using the carrot and stick approach. The carrot is the economic might that she wields and the money she throws around. The stick, of course, is her growing military might.

    However, it was when she was far weaker that she resorted to bloodletting. She was far weaker than today when she fought the Sino-Vietnam Wars, threatened India, and thump her chest at Moscow. Today, she will gladly put her claims on the backburner if there is a buck to be made. Note, Sir, how many trade deals India has signed with China despite the border disputes not being settled. The same with Vietnam.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Chinese Strategic Miscalculations in the South China Sea




    http://www.eastwestcenter.org/sites/...te/apb_181.pdf
    If one checks history book -- The claim started by Qing, continued by the Republic of China. currently both ROC and PRC have identical claims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Sir,

    Qing Maps also showed Afghanistan, Mongolia, Korea, and Siberia as part of their empire. Obviously, no Chinese citizen today can lay claim to those lands.

    Most of the land disputes have been settled by peacefully means with one expection -- India. Even Sino-Vietnam land dispute is no longer an issue. All Qing era disputes with CAR are cleared without making any headline. those are facts.


    China and Vietnam settle border dispute - The New York Times
    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/eas....19027004.html
    1 Jan 2009 – China and Vietnam settle border dispute ... HANOI — Vietnam and China have completed the demarcation of their long-disputed land border in ...
    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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