I think there is a wee bit difference!Originally Posted by middle earth
Indian life span has been increasing over the last few decades. I am sure China has made better progress than India on this indicator as on most other indicators.
Mao's policies resulted in mass starvation deaths in a short period of time. I am not sure what parallel you can see between the two cases.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
He was a freaking oppertunist. Idealist don't start wars with a superpower ready, willing, able, and wanting to nuke you to kingdom come. The only thing that saved his butt was that the other superpower didn't want it to happenned.
Chimo
GLF had caused millions of deaths. However, there should be a distinction between the premature deaths that caused by malnutrition and postponement of labors and the deaths that caused by direct starvation. Therefore, the comparison with the life span of today's Indians and Chinese are justifiable, because the 30 millions figure included the number of people who supposed to be born but not born and who supposed to be lived longer but didn't.
It is unquestionable that Mao is somewhat insane in his later life, but if you want to throw around numbers. You should have more clear idea of what the numbers represent.
How determined is the USSR? Would Mao back down?
Thank God we never found out.
Chimo
I am not sure about this part! My understanding is that these 30 million (or 50 million) deaths were the result of starvation caused by his policies in a relatively short time. Mainly the export of food when there was a tremendous shortage in the countryside and the party cronies were projecting as if there were bumper crops, enough to export out of China.
I am just not convinced by your post. Let me know a credible source.
The average age of human beings is increasing at a fast clip because of better health facilities and nutrition. It doesn't mean that the earlier lower average age equated to murder. You really must have a great mind to equate these two.
By that logic, did Hitler also just reduce the average age of the Jews and the Russians? Are his genocides comparable to the deaths due to lower average age in any country? China's average life expectancy is 10 years lesser than Japan. Does that mean millions of murders are being perpetrated?
Last edited by Vinod2070; 09 Mar 10, at 17:39.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
You could always use google or wiki. The point is that the method they used to arrive at this number is not very scientific. They put on too much assumptions by using the projective birth rate, but not enough research on finding, investigating and interviewing.
There was a famine, but his policies made the famine into a catastrophic event. The export of food is just an idiotic thing to do but its effect is overplayed. The only thing they could do is to import food and stop the stupid policies.
Wim F Wertheim and Ping ti Ho etc.I am just not convinced by your post. Let me know a credible source.
You are the one that claimed murder, not me. On the other hand, I was the one who advocated that how should we better define murder.The average age of human beings is increasing at a fast clip because of better health facilities and nutrition. It doesn't mean that the earlier lower average age equated to murder. You really must have a great mind to equate these two.
The number is in dispute and again, no one saw starvation. People did go hungry but there were no empty villages nor people waiting to die as seen in Somalia. Does not mean it did not happenned but nowhere near the crisis level as these authors make it out to be. In other words, there were no migration as often seen with starvation.
Also, up until the 1980s, no one outside of China knew of this famine which again while not an indication of non-mass deaths, it does mean that the society held together not to project that image.
India sufferred something very similar - the British induced Bengali Famine of WWII. Did people died? Of course they did but the society held together not to portray an image of a dying society.
I think the causes of deaths in both cases would be very similar and their effects would be the same.
Chimo
Yes, the Bengal famine was terrible, taking a toll of millions. My understanding is that it was not due to lack of food on the shelves but due to no buying power of the people.
The British were surely to blame for most of those deaths. They did little to prevent it.
At the very least, the British were guilty of negligence if not the direct cause of those millions of deaths. In the case of Mao, it would appear that it was a case of misplaced priorities coupled with lack of awareness of ground realities.
If no proper investigation has been done about the quantum and reasons of the crisis then there is little to say.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
Same effect as the GLF, the food went somewhere else than to those who produced it.
My understanding was that the Brits were the actual cause of the famine. They've made a choice. Feed the armies or feed the people. They've fed the armies.
As with everything else in life, it was not as simple as that. The locals lied about their production ... just to be better than the next village ... and so on. So, when the cental commitee did their calculations, they sold the excess ... which supposedly the locals had. In other words, the locals starved for not having the excess that they supposedly had.
Like everything else we have discussed, why would you investigate what is going right? You have more than enough to investigate about things going wrong.
This being all said, just how much of an impact that the Bengal Famine had on India? India still fielded the largest army of the British Empire despite the famine.
Chimo
Well, you would investigate so that you can learn from history and don't repeat the same mistakes.Like everything else we have discussed, why would you investigate what is going right? You have more than enough to investigate about things going wrong.
Yes, we did. But the sole purpose of our existence was not to field armies for the empire while our people were dying of starvation! May be these things have always happened throughout history, now they are no longer acceptable.This being all said, just how much of an impact that the Bengal Famine had on India? India still fielded the largest army of the British Empire despite the famine.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
I doubt the people had much say in it. It was all settled between the party cronies as far as I know. The CPC local henchmen were responsible for providing the production figures, weren't they?As with everything else in life, it was not as simple as that. The locals lied about their production ... just to be better than the next village ... and so on. So, when the cental commitee did their calculations, they sold the excess ... which supposedly the locals had. In other words, the locals starved for not having the excess that they supposedly had.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..
You're not understanding. Was there a reason to doubt these figures. In hindsight, yes, but was there a reason to doubt that the farmers simply did not worked harder? Be advised, despite the propaganda, Mao was no farm boy.
Again, you're not understanding. The Brits made a choice ... BUT it was not a case of a deliberate famine. They left what they've thought to be sufficient ... it wasn't ... and when it became time to choose to feed the armies (of which the British Indian Army was the largest army in the Commonwealth), they've chosed between winning a war and a hungry population ... versus a starving population. Only, it was not a hungry population. It was a starving population.
But be that as it may, you're missing my point. Was there any sign that the British made the wrong choice? Ie, a hungry population versus a starving population.
Extropulate that onto the GLF please.
Chimo
They've lied and they should have been strung up by the neck ... but do note that they've managed to hide the starvation facts ... by not feeding the old folks ... and denying birth licenses.
Chimo
Sir, is it right to say that Mao depended on teenagers to lead the GPCR because he had lost the support of the adults after GLP......
Last edited by 667medic; 10 Mar 10, at 06:48.
Seek Save Serve Medic
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