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Thread: China Increasingly Stands Up To U.S

  1. #61
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    Look no further than the Chinese internet warriors on this very thread. They're defending the CCP.

    Gee..thanks for pointing this out OoE Sir..)

    The "parents" were right and the students learned that they were wrong. Just put your nose to the grindstone, work hard, and your reward shall come.


    Sir, very right and that's a very typical Asian approach, work hard and results will show up (thats what are parents keep saying all the time ) . I don't consider their quest/ desire for freedom/ democracy wrong. However it's to CPCs credit if they did internalize some of their demands into their policy making initiatives.

    The PLA's refusal to join in the Tibet and Xinjiang riots is testament that the CCP is no longer the monolithic entity that it once was.

    Sir, is not the head of Tibetan affairs a PLA person? I thought that the PLA controlled Tibet.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by subba View Post
    Not sure if that's the classical case. Regimes have brutalized their people for ages without allowing pissed off characters to form groups strong enough to challenge authority.
    Not sure which history you're reading but Empires sufferred from uprisings as much as foreign invasions.

    Quote Originally Posted by subba View Post
    Authoritarianism always tends to control. It will try and eliminate those who try and revolt.
    And never quite successful except in the case of genocide. Even ethnic cleansing does not work. Chechnya being the case in point. Stalin railwayed 80% of the population to Siberia.

    Quote Originally Posted by subba View Post
    Today the price can be nuclear war, devastation for something petty. No free society would like to invite that for something stupid like totalitarianist ideals imposed on them.
    Let's not add non-critical factors into this. For Chinese citizens to rise against the CCP, nuclear weapons are the furthest thing from their minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by subba View Post
    I do. That's what all societies that consider individual rights and freedoms sacrosanct do. It might not be followed, but then Institutions that defend the individual vs state cases in the judiciary follow. I don't know how many people in China can file suits against PRC, but in India, every Tom and Dick files a case against the GOI. And i read somewhere the GOI loses most cases.
    The Chinese method is protests and usually, the larger protests wins the day as the local government will surcome to the demands or at least mullifying the protesters enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by subba View Post
    I agree with your above sentiments. But they apply to countries that have Institutions that uphold 'freedom charters'. They evolve. Authoritarian regimes, tend to either abrogate any challenges made to them. I am interested though in how the internet is responsible in creating more awareness among citizens under totalitarian regimes. I think that's a big challenge to them. (Thats a new game changer and would like OoE sirs and your views on that).
    I think you're getting way ahead of yourself. I don't know how much of a game changer the internet is but the Chinese people always had the rumour mill and that goes much faster than the internet.

    And you keep missing the point, the CCP is not the authority that you think it is. It has to make deals with the people. There are times it screws up and screws up bad. SARS was a political disaster for the CCP.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by subba View Post

    Not sure if that's the classical case. Regimes have brutalized their people for ages without allowing pissed off characters to form groups strong enough to challenge authority. The internet as mentioned before may be a cause of greater awareness amongst Chinese citizens. But that too the PRC is trying to control/ manage as best as possible.
    [I]
    Sir, modern and pre-modern Chinese history is filled with blood. The farmers and individuals feed up with the regimes and overthown them. Even the few regimes that have sucessfully established their powers, they are under constantly struggles to maintain their authorities. It is not only the internet, but there are always a limit. No amount of propaganda can silence anger and resentment especially the angry parents.


    No, no. It's the exception, not the rule. Authoritarianism always tends to control. It will try and eliminate those who try and revolt. Today the price can be nuclear war, devastation for something petty. No free society would like to invite that for something stupid like totalitarianist ideals imposed on them.
    Exception, I don't think it is exception. I have seemed no regimes or nations that can last forever. The longest one I knew it might be few hundred years, but in between the revolts were constantly happenning. For example, from the establishment of Qing dynasty to its demise, I can think of at least dozens of revolution which did not include the last decade of its down fall which numbers are way higher.

    Of course the costs and suffers are huge, and also there are no guarantee that newly established regimes can uphold their values such as what happened to the KMT.
    I do. That's what all societies that consider individual rights and freedoms sacrosanct do. It might not be followed, but then Institutions that defend the individual vs state cases in the judiciary follow. I don't know how many people in China can file suits against PRC, but in India, every Tom and Dick files a case against the GOI. And i read somewhere the GOI loses most cases.
    There are a lot of cases against PRC, but most of them are settled because of the local authorities don't want publicity. However, for the cases that can not be brought off, the tactics usually intimadation and threats. There are also petitions but only only ten percents of the case can resolve by Central government's interference. For the rest of 90 percent, their struggles
    continue, however not all the cases are the government's flaws. I believe that one out of ten cases the citizens are being unreasonable, so one out of nine cases the government is at fault. I don't know the exact numbers, but I guess majority of people still can't have their issues resolve by the courts.

    Constitution is the foundation of the rights, but it does not guarantee that the rights could be protected and uphold. There are many countries that have freedom and rights written in their consitution, but they still consider an authoritarian regimes. Even the Chinese's constitution has some sort of rights; therefore, constitution is just the highest law on the land, but people need to adhere and respect the laws in order for the constitution to be meaningful. The authoritaran regimes would twist the laws and constitution; consequently, constitution became irrelevant.
    I agree with your above sentiments. But they apply to countries that have Institutions that uphold 'freedom charters'. They evolve. Authoritarian regimes, tend to either abrogate any challenges made to them. I am interested though in how the internet is responsible in creating more awareness among citizens under totalitarian regimes. I think that's a big challenge to them. (Thats a new game changer and would like OoE sirs and your views on that).
    Evolvement is not only applied to freedom and rights, but also the living standard, good judiciary system, efficient government etc. If you understand how bureacracy and inefficient of China prior before the reform that you should understand China has evolved, but it is at the crossroad again that CCP has to choose to more forward(weakening of its powers) or stay the same(risk losing control of the nation).

    Cellphones with cameras and text messages might be even more effective tools. However, it is not really how bad CCP is anymore, but the alternatives just don't live up to expectation. I mean the advocates of human rights(1989) who resides in West have lost all their credibility from the eyes of the Chinese because of their stupidities. Hopefully, new generation of mainland Chinese's human rights' advocates are smarter.


    I would be glad to here what fundamentals are more important to a countries' constitution.
    People's beliefs, values, and respect of the laws. If people can be bought with few dollars, then the constitution is useless.

    I know. That's why i sighed.
    Because we perceive things differently, so you sighed. Sir, many of the ancient civilizations are authoriatarian regimes, but their nations and civilization did evolve. Evolvement should not be stricted to only one or two things. Culture, values, beliefs are just as important.

    I agree sir. Though i suspect the vulnerability is more to do with the easy information available on the internet. Would like your feedbacks and obviously also from established members like OoE sir.
    OOE is much more insightful, wiser and knowledgeable than I would ever be, but I still disagree with some of things he said. However, he would hamper me if I dare to challege him.

    The exchange of information in any form is the biggest challenge CCP faces, and, CCP basically loses the control of information and its propaganda's machine lost all its effectively and values. But CCP didn't lose control of the nation yet.
    Look no further than the Chinese internet warriors on this very thread. They're defending the CCP.
    Now I become a commie, I hope they paid me well.

  4. #64
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    Sir, is not the head of Tibetan affairs a PLA person? I thought that the PLA controlled Tibet.
    Sorry to cut in, -- PLA does not control either Tibet/Xinjiang and the point OOE was trying clarify. Also PLA was not mobilized during the recent riots, but it did proved some degree of logistic support.

    The head of Tibet is an ex-PLA.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyli View Post
    So as long as you live in a free society, then you are superior than the rest of the world that is not free. Sorry, I don't buy it. I view a person from what he says, what he does, but not where he comes from. People who live and were born in a free society does not give them any moral high ground. He could be a scum of the earth from all I care. Of course I don't mean you, but I disagree with your portrayal.
    I wasn't claiming any 'moral high ground', that was your assertion from the start. I don't claim to be superior, but I assert that my society is. The rest is all in you head.

    I was pointing out that another member made an inaccurate and offensive statement about my society in an attempt to deflect the criticism of others. You haven't actually engaged with that.

    I don't have problem with people who claimed that Australia is a great nation or it is any wrong to say that Australians are treated much better than the Chinese people from their government
    Which is basically what I am saying.

    However, if you claim that Australians is purely good and saint, and it did no wrongs and have not committed atrocities. Then I have problems. There are always a lesser of the two evils or better of two nations, but I don't believe pure good and pure evil.
    I have made no such claim. Having actually informed myself about the history of my nation I have taken extremely critical positions about past & present policies. At times I have protested in public. I am happy to discuss Australia's past with anyone who has done enough reading to form an intelligent opinion. The poster I first responded to did not, indeed, he did not evern read his own link.

    It is unrealistic. In the cold war, America, its allies and USSR all have their hands with blood, but America is a better alternative than USSR. It doesn't equal US is good.
    A statement of the blindingly obvious, but yes, that is true.

    BTW the pattern thing is just an attempt to agitate Bigfella. It seems I have catched more than one fish from one little agitated statement
    You are not half as smart as you think you are. The motivation behind the statement was clear & I did not respond directly to it. The only 'fish' you caught were an Indian & another Chinese.
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  6. #66
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    Gents,


    stay on topic, leave the "personal" out of this.
    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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    In Tibet, iirc, there were rumors that the PLA disguised themselves as PAP during the riot suppression. So that's untrue and it was done by the PAP, or if it is true, then it shows a willingness to pay at least lip service to the laws of the land?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I wasn't claiming any 'moral high ground', that was your assertion from the start. I don't claim to be superior, but I assert that my society is. The rest is all in you head.

    I have made no such claim. Having actually informed myself about the history of my nation I have taken extremely critical positions about past & present policies. At times I have protested in public. I am happy to discuss Australia's past with anyone who has done enough reading to form an intelligent opinion. The poster I first responded to did not, indeed, he did not evern read his own link.
    Sir
    Of course we treated them the way we treat all our 'splittists' & dissenters here - we gave them lots of free media coverage & all the freedoms & human rights they could ask for.

    If I were to take to weeping for the fate of the many tens of millions who died at the hands of the political organization that still rules China I would never stop weeping. A rather sad little exercise in point scoring.
    Did you treat them with freedoms and human rights from the start or it is just constantly improving process?

    Your sympathy and care for them have come after how long and might even be too late to reverse the process. Too little and too late, that is my disagreement with you.


    You are not half as smart as you think you are. The motivation behind the statement was clear & I did not respond directly to it. The only 'fish' you caught were an Indian & another Chinese.
    Smart is the last thing I would call myself. The statement is for Superdog, more or less so that he doesn't need to take my post too seriously. The pattern thing is not for him.

    My motivation is clear that I disagree with you and your assertion. However, if my joke with superdog has offensed you that it is my flaw, in discussion board sometime it is not easy to express things rightly and respectfully.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    My 'moral high ground' such as it is, is that I live in a free society where people who want to challenge the policies of the state don't risk their freedom or that of their families to do so. I also live in a state that established democratic self government within 20 years of the first settlement & has maintained democratic government without interruption for 155 years. If you want to call that a 'moral high ground' then go ahead.

    As for the rest, I didn't start dredging up examples of past ill doing to deflect criticism from the failings of my own society. I also don't need to reach into the distant past should I wish to do so. I can find numerous examples within the living memory of WAB board members. Oh, and as far as I know I didn't claim something that is blatantly false & denies the existence of people still living.
    First, I accept what gunnut had said that I should not attach Trail of Tears and Tasmanian Aborigines links in my post. I agree that those are not relevant today. These policies do not exist today and what China did in the same period of time was not any better. I will come back to talk about that later if I am allowed.

    I have tremendous admiration to the successful Australia democratic system and believe that every Australian including you on this board have made some contribution to make it even more successful.

    My question is that how much of this success is created by you and your generation and how much of this success is inherited from your grand grand … grand parents.

    May be you have made extraordinary contribution to the current success of the Australia democratic system and it is just we don’t know. Please tell us and we will accept that you are entitled to show off your “high moral ground”.

    If you inherited most of the current success and come to show off your “high moral ground”, then, it is just like a silly rich kid shows off his luxury toys to the poor kids. And it was the rich kid’s grand grand … grand parents worked very hard and smart to get the luxury toys.

    If this is the case and if I were you, instead of showing off the luxury toys, I would thank my grand grand … grand parents first and tell these poor kids some stories that how your grand grand … grand parents worked very hard and smart to get the luxury toys for you.

    May be some of their stories will inspire us and we can learn one thing or two. But I really hope that even a rich kid who inherited lot of stuff like you can understand that today’s China is a lot different from the Australia at the time when your grand grand … grand parents built the foundation for your current success and probably China has to find/adopt a some what different approach to reach that success.

    For my generation (not me and I am ashamed for contributing too little), I think that they really did something extraordinary in lifting China from a half starving nation to a fast growth nation in a very short period of time. Several hundred million of people come out of poverty in a record time that this world has never seen before. I think that probably they deserve to show off the extraordinary achievement they made by themselves. By the same token, I believe that the current generation in Singapore, HongKong, Macau, Taiwan, South Korea and even Japan all deserve to show off their extraordinary achievement that they made by themselves.

    Despite of all the achievement the current Chinese generation achieved by themselves (not inherited), they are still poor kids compare to you and if you want, you can still show of your inherited luxury toys to them.
    Last edited by Zeng1; 08 Feb 10, at 16:25.

  10. #70
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, I did not and do not claim moral high ground on this issue. I merely wanted to correct your misconceptions about the Indian/Native American/First Nation people in North America. What happened to them in the past was terrible. Those policies have been eliminated. We have policies in place to help them succeed in our modern society, if they so choose. There are no restrictions placed on them today.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    well, hard to say, i have no excuse with china's climate change policy, i don't like it either.about triangle relationship of taiwan, china and america, it is controversial, pass it. but for tibet, it is america who makes troubles. first it was british who tried to mess it up, since british could not work it out, american took it over. on my mind, one wrong is of china, one wrong is of america, and the rest one is hard to say, it is tie, it is stalemate. so the tension will not ease in the foreseeable future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Just to clarify, I did not and do not claim moral high ground on this issue. I merely wanted to correct your misconceptions about the Indian/Native American/First Nation people in North America. What happened to them in the past was terrible. Those policies have been eliminated. We have policies in place to help them succeed in our modern society, if they so choose. There are no restrictions placed on them today.
    gunnut,

    Please don’t drive today It is OK to be a drunk poster on a web forum but not OK to be a drunk driver on the street. It is illegal

    I was not aware that you have some Aussie connection

  13. #73
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeng1 View Post
    gunnut,

    Please don’t drive today It is OK to be a drunk poster on a web forum but not OK to be a drunk driver on the street. It is illegal

    I was not aware that you have some Aussie connection
    Your original post referred to the Chaco Indian reservation you visited in Arizona.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  14. #74
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=kyli;715654]Sir
    Of course we treated them the way we treat all our 'splittists' & dissenters here - we gave them lots of free media coverage & all the freedoms & human rights they could ask for.

    If I were to take to weeping for the fate of the many tens of millions who died at the hands of the political organization that still rules China I would never stop weeping. A rather sad little exercise in point scoring.


    Did you treat them with freedoms and human rights from the start or it is just constantly improving process?

    Your sympathy and care for them have come after how long and might even be too late to reverse the process. Too little and too late, that is my disagreement with you.
    Well that is your opinion & you are welcome to it.

    My sympathy can only exist during my own lifetime, and in the case of aboriginies I have had it since I was a child & actually got to meet & spend a small amount of time with aboriginies. My parents actively campigned for aboriginal rights before I was born (without fear of retribution).

    As for 'reversing the process', I don't have a clue what you are talking about. There are probably as many aboriginies now as there were at white settlement & they own or control something like 13% of Australia. This doesn't include the much larger area where access can be claimed for traditional purposes. Traditional languages & culture are probably more alive now than they have been for well over a century in most areas. There continue to be serious issues in aboriginal communities, but as I said before, we've tried everything from authoritarianism to the most sympathetic liberalism wihtout success. By all means proffer any solutions you have.

    Aboriginies also have to right to protest government policy without fear of legal sanction - as do all Australians. Aboriginies have been doing this in one form or another since before Australia existed.


    Smart is the last thing I would call myself. The statement is for Superdog, more or less so that he doesn't need to take my post too seriously. The pattern thing is not for him.

    My motivation is clear that I disagree with you and your assertion. However, if my joke with superdog has offensed you that it is my flaw, in discussion board sometime it is not easy to express things rightly and respectfully.
    It takes a lot more than that to offend me.
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  15. #75
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeng1 View Post
    First, I accept what gunnut had said that I should not attach Trail of Tears and Tasmanian Aborigines links in my post. I agree that those are not relevant today. These policies do not exist today and what China did in the same period of time was not any better. I will come back to talk about that later if I am allowed.
    Good. When you do you might engage with my original comments. I'll put them into question form.

    * Do you read the links you post ?
    * Do you understand what was incorrect about your statement?
    * Do you understand why it was offensive?

    The rest of what you have written is just empty sophistry mixed with factual innacuracy. It isn't worth wasting the time for a detailed reply. If you want to play 'international proletarian' to my 'rich boy' go right ahead. It is just empty posturing. Perhaps it plays well in China, but that sort of obfuscation won't wash here.

    Just one thing to consider. You want to dismiss me for waving my 'inherited luxury toys' around. OK, if that makes you feel better. Can you give me one reason why I should respect someone whose own government has decided that they are not sufficiently worthy of respect to exercise free speech, free association or participate in selecting who governs them?

    See two can play the name calling game - pointless, isn't it? If you actually have an adult contribution to make (answering my simple questions is a start) then by all means get back to me.
    Last edited by Bigfella; 09 Feb 10, at 12:07.
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