China's Blockbuster - 'The Founding of a Republic'

**zara** · 10 Sep 09,, 22:58

Originally Posted by xinhui

Most of the historian would disagree with your notion that it was the third commintern/Stalin that "allow" Mao to get away with the long march.

you misquoted me. I said that 'may be why'

I know some historians beleive that Chiang allowed Mao to escape into Sichlian province so that (once Maos army had fled north) he could move his troops in and regain control under the pretence of restoring peace.

This is also plausable, but you do wonder why on the eve of victory, he would allow a major communist force to escape?

**xinhui** · 10 Sep 09,, 23:17

Originally Posted by zara

you misquoted me. I said that 'may be why'

I know some historians beleive that Chiang allowed Mao to escape into Sichlian province so that (once Maos army had fled north) he could move his troops in and regain control under the pretence of restoring peace.

This is also plausable, but you do wonder why on the eve of victory, he would allow a major communist force to escape?

Military speaking, CKS was able to clean the Red army out, but the follow up warlord force was not able to destroy it, but they did try (only 1 in 10 made it). At the same time, Comminten's influence over Mao is minimal especially after the Zunyi Conference so the idea that Stalin would hold (not that he is not capable of) CKS's son so the Mao and his red army could escape is hard for me to believe.

**middle earth** · 11 Sep 09,, 02:03

Mao did many terrible things, if he didn’t, many people here would be WAILING, of course not Chinese. In my personal opinion, Mao is an emperor bordering a tyrant, Hitler a lunatic, Nehru a brainless clown.

There was anti Mao movement in China back in the eighties and on smaller scale today like anti Stalin in Russia in fifties, the CCP knows, if it wants to adopt new policies, they must have such a movement, if it wants to stay in power, it can’t topple Mao. The film must portray Mao from his bright side, if it doesn’t, it won’t be accepted by most people and CCP, people tend to remember his good side, forgive and forget his bad side. If you say, all Mao did are bad things, he gave us the BOMB, equal society, clean government and great poems. He is an idealist, to achieve his he didn’t mind much the means he resorted to. Tell you what, Mao is a symbol and instrument today.

**Tronic** · 11 Sep 09,, 05:24

Originally Posted by RedStar0723

For the last time, I brought it up to prove that CCP under Mao brought enormous change to China that saved countless lives, lives that were utterly neglected under capitalist regimes such as India or China under Chaing Kai-shek.

India was a Socialist country, not a capitalist country. It seems like you are confusing political systems with economic. India had a democratic system in place, that does not make it a "capitalist" country. India remained a socialist country until the early 90s; China had/has an authoritarian regime in place, yet it opened up its economy back in the 80s. And I really don't agree with your view that killing a few million people is ok for the sake of the rest. Mao was a dictator and he got away with it, no Indian government would last in power if it even thought about doing what Mao did.

**Bigfella** · 11 Sep 09,, 08:22

Originally Posted by gunnut

I beg to differ. Chiang could have united China without Mao. Sure, he was corrupt. But he wasn't the mass murderer Mao was. What would have happened if Chiang had won the Chinese civil war? Maybe the Cold War would have lasted longer? Maybe the Cold war would have ended sooner? We'll never know.

None of which invalidates my main point.

You asserted:

Bottom line, Mao was a terrible human being and did not contribute anything positive to humanity

I only had to put forth one of his achievements - the creation of a unified & functional Chinese state - to demolish this. What Chiang might or might not have done does not matter in that context.

Unless you can argue that Mao did not achieve this or that it did not make a positive contribution to humanity then you are still wrong.

**Bigfella** · 11 Sep 09,, 08:23

Originally Posted by gunnut

So angry and condescending...the liberal-ness is strong within you.

So proud of your ignorance...your GOPachlorians are off the scale.

**Bigfella** · 11 Sep 09,, 08:30

Originally Posted by astralis

mao was great at guerilla war but when it came to building a country, boy, did he suck. deng was easily ten times the administrator mao was.

Astralis,

My impression was that apart from being successful at guerilla war Mao was also very successful at transforming China from a semi-feudal society weighed down by its past into a genuinely modern society (obviously we are using shorthand here - he had many helpers, good & bad). What he sucked at beyond description was actually running the state he helped to forge. This is where Deng excelled, but he inherited the instrument, he wasn't required to create it.

**Bigfella** · 11 Sep 09,, 08:47

Originally Posted by cdude

This post deserves a round of applause. I think OOE would agree with you, too. Just my guess though. And had Mao retired before the "great leap forward", his legacy would have been almost all positive.

His mistakes have been mostly corrected and his contribution to the foundations of a strong Chinese nation will be more appreciated in the future.

Applause is always nice cdude, but don't get too carried away. History doesn't give us neat 'outs' like that. It is a bit like Germans pointing out how good Hitler would have been if he'd resigned in 1938 - not a particularly useful perspective.

Even before the 'GLF' Mao had the blood of millions on his hands. His subsequent policies during the 'Hundred Flowers', 'GLF' and 'Cultural Revolution' were the price China paid for Mao. I think his positive contributions ultimately outweigherd the negative, but not by as wide a margin as I'd like.

I also notice none of Mao's defenders jumping in to discuss his disgraceful foreign policy.

**Luke Gu** · 11 Sep 09,, 10:01

he didn't seem to like peace. He liked chaos.

He likes fight。At first，he fight with KMT and Japan。When KMT and Japan are
Defeated，he began fight with the enemy hide in CPC。But it's hard to
Identify the hidden enemy，so you can see Many incredible things。

That may be why Chiang allowed Mao's army to get away on the long march - he had plenty of opportunity to crush him, but he let him get away.

It's Incompetence of Chiang Kai-shek。If you know the degree that he hate CPC，I don't think you will get this idea。And Stalin is a guy put Russia‘s interest in first。I don't think he will offend the Chiang Kai-shek for CPC which almost is completely annihilated at that time。

My point is simply that China should not venerate a tyrant like Mao.

Who should China venerate？Deng？Yes，but Mao laid the foundation for his success 。Is Mao build PPC，not Deng，it's the most important。

**Luke Gu** · 11 Sep 09,, 10:17

I think his positive contributions ultimately outweigherd the negative, but not by as wide a margin as I'd like.

Deng’s evaluation：Mao have 3% clanger，7% Credit。That's why his photos still Hang on the Tiananmen Square。

I also notice none of Mao's defenders jumping in to discuss his disgraceful foreign policy.

Because I think it's Silly political games 。And I‘m not interesting in Ideological war。It needn't excuse because The United States and the Soviet Union also do the same thing。

**zara** · 11 Sep 09,, 10:17

Originally Posted by Luke Gu

It's Incompetence of Chiang Kai-shek。If you know the degree that he hate CPC，I don't think you will get this idea。And Stalin is a guy put Russia‘s interest in first。I don't think he will offend the Chiang Kai-shek for CPC which almost is completely annihilated at that time。

Who should China venerate？Deng？Yes，but Mao laid the foundation for his success 。Is Mao build PPC，not Deng，it's the most important。

Russias interest was for the CPC to inherit China. Russia created the CPC! of course they were routeing for them! Stalin kept Chiangs son so that he would have leverage over him if he needed it. Theres no evidence that I know of to suggest that Stalin was giving direct orders to Chiang - but after he let the red army escape he wrote a letter to Stalin asking if his Son could return. That suggests that he may have been trying to appease Stalin by letting Mao escape..

Who should China Venerate?

You don't have to venerate anyone - you don't need these silly personality cults.

**Luke Gu** · 11 Sep 09,, 10:30

You don't have to venerate anyone - you don't need these silly personality cults.

Every have the heroes in his heart。No Chinese is forced to regard Mao as his hero。So，I think we are discussing the value of Mao。In my heart ，Deng is the first hero，Mao is the second。I need them to give my power to become a useful man to China。

Russias interest was for the CPC to inherit China

Yes，but I don't think Stalin have any confidence of that CPC can inherit China at that time。Remember that Red Army is almost completely annihilated at that time。So there’s no interest for Russia to offend the Chiang Kai-shek at that situation。

**zara** · 11 Sep 09,, 12:57

Originally Posted by Luke Gu

Every have the heroes in his heart。No Chinese is forced to regard Mao as his hero。So，I think we are discussing the value of Mao。In my heart ，Deng is the first hero，Mao is the second。I need them to give my power to become a useful man to China。

Yes，but I don't think Stalin have any confidence of that CPC can inherit China at that time。Remember that Red Army is almost completely annihilated at that time。So there’s no interest for Russia to offend the Chiang Kai-shek at that situation。

But the Chinese heavily control the media so people in China dont have access to the same infomation we do.

Your in China now right - Ill bet you cant get onto this website:

Home | Free Tibet

**Luke Gu** · 11 Sep 09,, 13:32

But the Chinese heavily control the media so people in China dont have access to the same infomation we do.

What does it do？We just learn the advantages of Mao's。Only in the assessment of his legacy will be make mistakes。And I don't think the truth can help Chinese anything。Chinese make many Perfect Heroes in history through just remember the good things the hero do。Mao just one of them。

Your in China now right - Ill bet you cant get onto this website:

Is this not a lucky thing to me that the goverment not ban WAB？

**astralis** · 11 Sep 09,, 14:45

BF,

My impression was that apart from being successful at guerilla war Mao was also very successful at transforming China from a semi-feudal society weighed down by its past into a genuinely modern society (obviously we are using shorthand here - he had many helpers, good & bad).

i really think this was overstated. WWII did more to destroy the pillars of old society than mao did.

ironically, both chiang and mao advocated the three major changes that marked the societal transformation- land reform, mass mobilization, warlord elimination.

the big difference was that by the time WWII ended, chiang could no longer afford land reform, he had unpopularly raised taxes on an ever smaller base (as the japanese cut off his biggest money-makers, the cities), and he was more dependent on the warlords he had co-opted earlier.

mao in effect took over the modern apparatus of the state the KMT built-the army, bureaucracy, financial sector- and used it to complete the societal reforms that chiang no longer had the political support to do.

did mao succeed in building a modern state? yes, he did- but only with a major boost from his old enemy, at a far, far higher cost and with more brutality than was necessary (even by chiang standards, which is saying something). much of this cost and brutality stemmed from his own desire for power, his complete lack of economic understanding, and his wish to return the "good ol days" of revolution.