China will be a democracy by 2020!

**xinhui** · 23 Aug 09,, 03:55

Human rights in China remains a controversial issue. Western hypocrisy may have reduced the public admonition of the Chinese leadership by their western peers. The curbing of excesses of human rights abuse and greater freedom of the press are both in China’s interests. China will act, as with all countries, act first and foremost in her own interests. We should therefore suggest why human rights progress is in China’s own interests.

Oh please.

First Tim, then Hillary, and now Obama, how hard did they push human right issue to China? Beside, improve human right will serve China's interest and should be welcomed with a red carpet.

**Luke Gu** · 23 Aug 09,, 06:27

And I hate how you accept your fate like blind pigs to slaughter.

Officer,it's cautious，different from accepting my fate。

So, why are you allowing them to do so? I mean you, as in you personally

Sorry，don't understand you，you mean I should stop FLG followers Self-immolation？

but I just don't agreed with certain sterotype,

So am I。

Maybe it is the tradition of five thousand years of bloody uprising that reside in the blood on many Chinese, or they are tired of the wars against harsh environment, or just maybe they are afraid.

From our history，one Feudal dynasty Collapse，another build up。There isn't any improvement，the Politicians only likes to make empty promises and use people。

**siberialynx** · 23 Aug 09,, 06:30

Originally Posted by xinhui

Let me clarify, I recently finish read that book and the title is still fresh in my head, thus I cited it as an example of the debate that is taking place in China right now, even at very high echo of the government.

However, is the Chinese government willing to put the needed mechanism in place such as a greater rule-of-law, larger Civil-space, and additional rules for NGO? So far I have not notice any major changes in those regards -- The Russian experience in the 1990s is still fresh in the mind of the decision makers.

It does look like the progress of the plan stopping or slow down. For what reasons we don't know. But I don't doubt the sincere of their plan, their intention to try.

I have seen a poll about half year ago, a poll about Chinese predict when will China have democracy. some says 20 years, some predict 40, but nobody predict anything over 60 years.

It seems they are quite optimistic.

Let's look at this way, America's democracy also build in graduately, America build in 1776, the women started to vote in 1920, the African-American in 1960's, then, after 232 years, they finally have the first African-American president. It is also a long walk too.

PRC is only 60 years old, give them another 60 to 100 years, it is still shorter than America's walk. Right?
(I am joking)

What I am saying is that I think we shouldn't be so frustrated, even though the progress of democratic reform slow down at this moment.

**siberialynx** · 23 Aug 09,, 06:38

Originally Posted by Luke Gu

From our history，one Feudal dynasty Collapse，another build up。There isn't any improvement，the Politicians only likes to make empty promises and use people。

I agree. That can be said to any politicans in any countries too.

**Officer of Engineers** · 23 Aug 09,, 06:47

Originally Posted by Luke Gu

Officer,it's cautious，different from accepting my fate。

Oh hell, there is a saying in the West. Either you are a man or you are not.

Originally Posted by Luke Gu

Sorry，don't understand you，you mean I should stop FLG followers Self-immolation？

Yes! Why are you not charging up front to these freaking idiots and say, "Is this what you want?" and "Why didn't you stop it?" and "It is your freaking fault that a 12 year old girl died and died in pain!" Why are you not doing this?

I am not going furhter with this because I wore the uniform and you have not but a Man do what is right.

**Luke Gu** · 23 Aug 09,, 06:53

I have seen a poll about half year ago, a poll about Chinese predict when will China have democracy. some says 20 years, some predict 40, but nobody predict anything over 60 years.

I hear george friedman predict China will break up in 2020 in his new book《the next 100 year》。So I don't think he will be happy to hear it。

America build in 1776, the women started to vote in 1920, the African-American in 1960's, then, after 232 years, they finally have the first African-American president. It is also a long walk too.

I don't think they have so Great patience to other nations。:P

**Officer of Engineers** · 23 Aug 09,, 07:13

Originally Posted by siberialynx

It does look like the progress of the plan stopping or slow down. For what reasons we don't know. But I don't doubt the sincere of their plan, their intention to try.

Are you really that stupid?

Originally Posted by siberialynx

I have seen a poll about half year ago, a poll about Chinese predict when will China have democracy. some says 20 years, some predict 40, but nobody predict anything over 60 years.

It seems they are quite optimistic.

How long have you lived in the West not to recognized a lie when you see one?

Originally Posted by siberialynx

Let's look at this way, America's democracy also build in graduately, America build in 1776,

American democracy was built in one day, just as the People's Republic of China was. When men said, "ENOUGH!"

Originally Posted by siberialynx

the women started to vote in 1920, the African-American in 1960's, then, after 232 years, they finally have the first African-American president. It is also a long walk too.

And each one of those actions took ONE day when one woman said, "ENOUGH!" and one Black Man said "ENOUGH!"

Originally Posted by siberialynx

PRC is only 60 years old, give them another 60 to 100 years, it is still shorter than America's walk. Right?

Sun Yet-Sen said, "ENOUGH!" Mao Tse-Tung said, "ENOUGH!" Zhou En-Laid said, "ENOUGH!" Deng Xia-Peng said, "ENOUGH!"

When are you going to say, "ENOUGH!"?

Originally Posted by siberialynx

(I am joking)

I'm not.

Originally Posted by siberialynx

What I am saying is that I think we shouldn't be so frustrated, even though the progress of democratic reform slow down at this moment.

Men have died for your country. When are you going to start living for yours?

**Luke Gu** · 23 Aug 09,, 07:14

Oh hell, there is a saying in the West. Either you are a man or you are not.

China also have a saying ：More haste, less speed。

es! Why are you not charging up front to these freaking idiots and say, "Is this what you want?" and "Why didn't you stop it?" and "It is your freaking fault that a 12 year old girl died and died in pain!" Why are you not doing this?

But I'm just 12 years old at that time。Oh，that poor girl and I are born in the same year。If she didn't die at that time，maybe she also is writing post in this forum like me。

I am not going furhter with this because I wore the uniform and you have not but a Man do what is right.

Do you mean I should do what is right rather than avoid the problem？

**Bigfella** · 23 Aug 09,, 07:21

Originally Posted by siberialynx

Let's look at this way, America's democracy also build in graduately, America build in 1776, the women started to vote in 1920, the African-American in 1960's, then, after 232 years, they finally have the first African-American president. It is also a long walk too.

You are wrong on the facts here I'm afraid. Very wrong. I'm afraid America is a bit more complex than you are portraying it. The first thing you need to understand is that American democracy does not just exist at the national level. It exists at state and local levels too.

I'll use some wikipedia links. They are imperfect, but will give some basic facts.

First, America had democracy before 1776, but of a limited form. The colonies had elected legislatures where important issues were debated & voted on. They shared power with governors appointed by Britain and the vote was often limited by gender, race or, most commonly, property. Even so, by the standards of the day this was democracy.

Colonial government in the Thirteen Colonies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Next we come to women. Some women were actually allowed to vote in colonial legislatures and occasionally in state & local elections. Two women ran for President in the late 1800s, and by the turn of the century several states allowed women to vote. By the time the constitution was amended in 1920 women had the vote in all the western states, Texas, New York, Illinios & others. Some were even able to vote in Presidential elections.

Women's suffrage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm afraid you are even further out on the issue of African Americans. Again, some colonies allowed black men to vote before the revolution & some states continued to allow this after the revolution. SO there are a few states in American where black men have been able to vote for over 250 years. Officially black men were able to vote from 1868. This remained the case in many northern & western states. In the South black voting rights were gradually restricted by local legislation. This was the process that was reversed by protests & legislation in the 50s & 60s. Millions & milions of blacks in the north, however, were able to vote during this period.

http://people.virginia.edu/~cak5u/AF...ANSUFFRAGE.doc

If you want to be taken seriously here you will need to do a bit better than this. If you want to draw any lesson from the AMerican experience it is that the sooner you start genuine democracy the better. American democracy pre-dates America. I can't see why a civilization that is several thousand years old should hold itself to a lower standard.

**Officer of Engineers** · 23 Aug 09,, 07:22

Originally Posted by Luke Gu

China also have a saying ：More haste, less speed。

And a wrong answer is better than no answer. You know at least you're wrong whether than wasting time guessing whether you're right or wrong.

Originally Posted by Luke Gu

But I'm just 12 years old at that time。Oh，that poor girl and I are born in the same year。If she didn't die at that time，maybe she also is writing post in this forum like me。

She didn't survive and that's the point.

Originally Posted by Luke Gu

Do you mean I should do what is right rather than avoid the problem？

Oh hell yeah! A man stands. A boy hides.

**siberialynx** · 23 Aug 09,, 07:29

Originally Posted by Luke Gu

I hear george friedman predict China will break up in 2020 in his new book《the next 100 year》。So I don't think he will be happy to hear it。

I guess not.

I don't think they have so Great patience to other nations。:P

They don't really care if China has democracy or not.

No countries in this world really has democracy or direct democracy, America actually is a republic.

**Officer of Engineers** · 23 Aug 09,, 07:33

Originally Posted by siberialynx

No countries in this world really has democracy or direct democracy, America actually is a republic.

Young Lady, I can trace your posts back 1 week to show you really don't know the difference but be that as it may, the biggest difference between Americans and Chinese citizens is that Americans dare their government to take their guns away from them while you beg for government permission.

**Luke Gu** · 23 Aug 09,, 07:35

Oh hell yeah! A man stands. A boy hides.

Thanks for your Guidance。

**siberialynx** · 23 Aug 09,, 07:40

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Are you really that stupid?

Personal attack is never a good debating point. Quite low too. If I am stupid, you are too.

How long have you lived in the West not to recognized a lie when you see one?

Right, everything you don't like are lies.

American democracy was built in one day, just as the People's Republic of China was. When men said, "ENOUGH!"

And each one of those actions took ONE day when one woman said, "ENOUGH!" and one Black Man said "ENOUGH!"

Sun Yet-Sen said, "ENOUGH!" Mao Tse-Tung said, "ENOUGH!" Zhou En-Laid said, "ENOUGH!" Deng Xia-Peng said, "ENOUGH!"

When are you going to say, "ENOUGH!"?

I'm not.

Men have died for your country. When are you going to start living for yours?

the above quote quite humour me.