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Thread: China will be a democracy by 2020!

  1. #16
    Regular siberialynx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    You will only have limited freedom with a 1-party system. Taiwan was a 1-party system for decades until the late 1980s. People only had limited freedom until then. However, the society was orderly. After the relaxation of the 1-party system, more political parties emerged, and more freedom for the people. However the society is less orderly.
    Well, a sword always have two sides, good and bad, it can hurt you or help you

    It will be a fine line for China to walk. We definitely live in interesting times.
    No doubt. I can't wait to see the development of it.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    i think we're all missing the qualifiers this guy is adding.





    which is to say, intraparty democracy by 2020, which is still hard to do but not impossible (like the prospect of a multiparty democracy by 2020).

    from the various readings on the subject, there is some indication the CCP is looking at "directed democracy" wherein there are city, maybe even provincial elections by 2050, while the CCP retains national control.
    Isn't that exciting?


    It is a brave move for the party to have plan like this. It is an offical announcement. Quietly approved by the party when it's openly annouced.

    If they can successfully carry out this plan, I would say the party do have the nation and her people at heart, not entirely cruel and selfess as some historic tyrants.

    It is still a tyrant but with some heart.

  3. #18
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    siberia,

    It is a brave move for the party to have plan like this. It is an offical announcement. Quietly approved by the party when it's openly annouced.
    you don't know much about how your own government works, do you?

    If they can successfully carry out this plan, I would say the party do have the nation and her people at heart, not entirely cruel and selfess as some historic tyrants.

    It is still a tyrant but with some heart.
    the CCP is worried that they will be hung from lampposts. i'm not joking. the current "plan", which is just being talked about and not close to any real implementation, is still weaker than the ideas of zhao ziyang in the 1980s.

    as for carrying it out, i do note that even the weak attempts at democracy on the village level have been rolled back.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."¯- Isaac Asimov

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post

    the CCP is worried that they will be hung from lampposts. i'm not joking. the current "plan", which is just being talked about and not close to any real implementation, is still weaker than the ideas of zhao ziyang in the 1980s.

    as for carrying it out, i do note that even the weak attempts at democracy on the village level have been rolled back.
    I am disappointed. But I think this global economy downturn has a lot to do with it.

    Under such economy, factories are closing down, people are losing jobs, China is facing any potential riots, CCP has to tighten up its grips. And the focus has to be on economy.

    When people get feed, then, we can talk about democracy. it is reality.
    Must solve people's basic living necessay first.

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    siberia,

    When people get feed, then, we can talk about democracy. it is reality.
    Must solve people's basic living necessay first.
    sorry, the CCP has been saying that for the last twenty years. i would be more persuaded if the CCP didn't crack down on lawyers, judicial reformers, environmental groups, medical groups, even the mothers seeking to know what went wrong in the sichuan earthquake.

    despite enormous economic growth since 1989, politically, chinese citizens are given less political leeway than they had in 1988.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."¯- Isaac Asimov

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    siberia,



    sorry, the CCP has been saying that for the last twenty years. i would be more persuaded if the CCP didn't crack down on lawyers, judicial reformers, environmental groups, medical groups, even the mothers seeking to know what went wrong in the sichuan earthquake.

    despite enormous economic growth since 1989, politically, chinese citizens are given less political leeway than they had in 1988.
    What really concern the Chinese now is not political reform, lack of political freedom, they complain more about high cost of Education, high cost of Real Estate, high cost of Health Care, which China finially unveiled a three-year action plan on health care reform.

    The people in China have become very pragmatic. They understand that in order for life to get better people must work, and work they do if they are not affected by this world financia crisis.

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    siberia,

    What really concern the Chinese now is not political reform, lack of political freedom, they complain more about high cost of Education, high cost of Real Estate, high cost of Health Care, which China finially unveiled a three-year action plan on health care reform.

    The people in China have become very pragmatic. They understand that in order for life to get better people must work, and work they do if they are not affected by this world financia crisis.
    if that's the case, then the CCP should have no problem introducing even very basic political freedoms, seeing their supposed intraparty democratic plan by 2020 and "directed democracy" by 2050.

    that they haven't, and tend to roll back even given civil freedoms everytime an anniversary comes up, tells me they're not very serious about those plans. they're still counting on economic growth as their real pillar of legitimacy.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."¯- Isaac Asimov

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    I hear that China is not going to install the "green dam" software into consumer personal computer.
    Who really care about if this action is right or true,it's just because we don't agree the High-handed approach the goverment take ,add western media join it,make the discussion Deviated。
    You will only have limited freedom with a 1-party system. Taiwan was a 1-party system for decades until the late 1980s. People only had limited freedom until then. However, the society was orderly. After the relaxation of the 1-party system, more political parties emerged, and more freedom for the people. However the society is less orderly.
    It's really a big apprehension to Chinese。

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    siberia,



    if that's the case, then the CCP should have no problem introducing even very basic political freedoms, seeing their supposed intraparty democratic plan by 2020 and "directed democracy" by 2050.

    that they haven't, and tend to roll back even given civil freedoms everytime an anniversary comes up, tells me they're not very serious about those plans. they're still counting on economic growth as their real pillar of legitimacy.
    Stablility is important for economic growth. it is the core of everything. I think CCP set its priority correct under this world financial crisis. China has to totally focus on the economy. The world, espectially the west, only believe in economic and military powers.

    But do I think if CCP overdone on tighting its grip? yes, but it is easy to overdone when the priority is set on stability suppress everything for keep the economic growth and rebounce from the downturn. Not to mention the CCP still living the shawdow from 1989. No one wants that to happen again.


    That's why I said this global financial crisis has affected the progress of this plan, I believe the officals and people who push this plan will continue to push but it will be harder for them to push under this circumstand. They will have to face more obstacles.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Gu View Post
    Who really care about if this action is right or true,it's just because we don't agree the High-handed approach the goverment take ,add western media join it,make the discussion Deviated。
    Ok, but I thought it was a good news.

  11. #26
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    China will never become a full free democracy. Decades of oppression in Tibet and other minority areas mean that as soon as they become a free democracy, these guys will vote for secession. China knows that. We know that. Tibet et all knows that. Thus, it'll never happen. They'll never risk losing Tibet and other regions. The country would be reduced to half its size if they became a full free democracy. Maybe worse.

    Now if they had been a full free democracy from the start... maybe minorities wouldn't have felt so oppressed to go for secession... something a country like India has/had over countries like the USSR, Yugoslavia, and the PRC

    Oppressive regimes hardly ever last the distance in multi ethnic societies. Why do you think Iraq went so messed up as soon as Saddam went away

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    The world, espectially the west, only believe in economic and military powers.
    Young lady, Your view of the world is very simplistic -- There is not such a thing as the "west". I suggest you look into concepts such as softpower, smart power and why people are willing to die for their freedom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezy View Post
    China will never become a full free democracy. Decades of oppression in Tibet and other minority areas mean that as soon as they become a free democracy, these guys will vote for secession. China knows that. We know that. Tibet et all knows that. Thus, it'll never happen. They'll never risk losing Tibet and other regions. The country would be reduced to half its size if they became a full free democracy. Maybe worse.

    Now if they had been a full free democracy from the start... maybe minorities wouldn't have felt so oppressed to go for secession... something a country like India has/had over countries like the USSR, Yugoslavia, and the PRC

    Oppressive regimes hardly ever last the distance in multi ethnic societies. Why do you think Iraq went so messed up as soon as Saddam went away
    There are about six million Tibetans living in tibet, there are over 7 million other non-Han-minorities also living there, They might not like the CCP, but they sided with CCP everytime, they even guided the PLA in their "anti-rebellion campaign" during the 1950s. It will be mess, but I just don't see how the Tibetans can simply kick everyone out by "winning" an election.

    Look at Xinjing, Uyghur has population of 8.7 million and most of the young are working in coastal areas (where the riot first get started) you think they can win a secession against 1.3 Billion votes?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by xinhui View Post
    Young lady, Your view of the world is very simplistic -- There is not such a thing as the "west". I suggest you look into concepts such as softpower, smart power and why people are willing to die for their freedom.

    Softpower originated from ancient Chinese philosophy, that's why I said the "west" only know and believe in economic and military powers. The succeed of the "west" were mainly based on it. Just look at the last couple hundred years.

    The reason softpower is talking point is because the failure of America's hard power in recent decade. They are just started to learn and evolve.

    In a world that America and the other "western" world still leading, softpower will always come after the economic and military powers.

    And I don't understand why you said there are no such thing as west?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by xinhui View Post
    why people are willing to die for their freedom
    And that is also mainly related to economic power.

    People die for it's because they thought they can change their living condition, live better, oh, look at the western world, how prosperous they are, because they have freedom and democracy....let's do it, die for our next generations.

    The bottom line is they thought freedom bring prosperity.

    It is a lie that people start awakening from.

    A strong ecomomy influence what people think, change their action. The economic power is the core of everything.

    Classic imperial nations like Britain know this rule very well and used it sucessfully against its opponents in the past, and now too, but it is not working well now because it is losing its economic power.

    That's my view.
    Last edited by siberialynx; 21 Aug 09, at 19:31.

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