Thread: Deterrence as an Operational Objective question

VP,


FIS - Worldnews - Manila, Beijing agree to establish common fishing area in disputed waters

Manila, Beijing agree to establish common fishing area in disputed waters

Monday, January 14, 2008, 20:20 (GMT + 9)

The Philippines and China have agreed to establish a common fishing area in the disputed South China Sea in a bid to reduce tensions, the head of the Philippine House of Representatives announced on Friday.

House Speaker Jose de Venecia Jr said other Southeast Asian states may be invited by the two countries to participate in the cooperative fishing area, particularly Vietnam.

Originally Posted by VietPhuong

Another point: don't pretend that only Vietnamese hate Chinese. Let your Chinese friends remind you about proposed invasion plan last year and the call to attack Vietnam this year using North Korea crisis as cover.

LOL, that one. Easy there sport, You can google this, but a fanboy posted a entry in FYJS, one of China largest forum (just like WAB) and got the Vietnamese fanboys all excited. Welcome to the age of anonymous posting.

I posted this news article in WAB, ROC arrested illegal fisherman from mainland and PRC logged no protest, if every time ROC logs a protest against PRC (as government to government) when some fanboy post an invasion plan online, ROC would need more "monitors"

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/ris...china-sea.html

Vietnam can not accept it

You, or Government of of Vietnam?

Another point: don't pretend that only Vietnamese hate Chinese.

Of course, I referring to you, not the Vietnamese people, see number 35 in this thread for an example.

Well, I said a fact in post #35. An example from Vietnam's side, there is a bauxite project going on in Centre Highland of Vietnam with investors from China and USA. Many Vietnam military generals and scientists oppose the participation of Chinese investors. They don't want to see a large Chinese settlement in our strategic highland. They say nothing about the Americans.
From China's side, the plan last year and the idea this year are still example. They may be stupid but the comments around them, even on some official newspapers are serious. They show exactly how people in PRC think about Vietnam.
About my personal feeling toward Chineses, you can judge it through other posts in this forum, not only that one.
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About the fishing ban, as long as it is one side, for sure Vietnam government will not accept it. They state it. If all countries can really cooperate, to fish at least, on South China Sea, even if I was something like you think, I would support it with both hands.

They show exactly how people in PRC think about Vietnam.

From some internet post by some fanboys, are you being a bit overgeneralizing?

They don't want to see a large Chinese settlement in our strategic highland. They say nothing about the Americans.

I think the example you cited has the opposite effort, it shows the distrust still hold by some Vietnamese (and I stated before, I understand their distrust). At the same time, why would a Chinese company willing to invest if they don't have the confident?


There is your opinion (I respect it), there is government of Vietnam's action.

Well, bauxite mine is environment killer. China itself has closed many mines and limits exporting quota. USA and EU are sueing China to WTO because of that.

I know the Communist government has already opened the door to Chinese company despite protest from Vietnamese. I have no comment about that.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The PLA would disagree with you.

1) The PLA knew that they had no chance in a battle of maneuver against the Soviet Army. Thus, they were relying on Stalingrad type fortifications and blocking the mountain passes.

Sir,
I find no reasons to expose my 2 best group armies if I'm confident that the enemy would decimate them. The 58th Army would have faced well entrenched, well seasoned forces specially in the passes where elevation would have played against them and the PLA would have a better kill rate.
You are relying a tad too much on the Soviet engineers and their capabilities.

3) RPGs made swiss cheese out of Chinese armour in that same war.

I wouldn't think that in such a battle, considering the terrain, the PLA would have relied much upon armour, instead anti-tank and arty would have been a better option to outflank and disrupt the advancing columns.

What the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan demonstrated that distance and terrain were no obstacles to the Soviets. They built roads ... in the middle of winter through that country. The same kind of terrain that the Chinese were relying on to slow/stop Soviet columns.

Sir,
Again, you are counting on the Soviets engineers more than they would deserve while facing a far superior army, with far superior fire power and experience(Don't forget their exploits against a highly maneuvering 1st Cavalry Division), than the Afghans could field.

It was not that the 39GA would be unwilling to fight but that they would be hopelessly outmanuvered, outgunned, and out-positioned by the Soivet 58th Army.

Outgunned probably, but I suspect if the 39th GA or even the 38th GA would have been out-positioned, not atleast while the advancing soviet coulumns would have been themselve very vulnerable in the passes. Some elements of the GAs would have most probably been tasked with disrupting the Soviets logistical tail as well. You also must consider that in such a manouvering battle, the Soviets would have had no space and time for any counter-battery operation.

Oh, Major, there is a big difference between the 39GA of 1979 and the 39GA of 1996. Least of all that they got their 2nd wake up call from the 1990 Kuwait War.

Sir,
I'm not comparing their capabilities. The 39th GA sure couldn't have been able to field a remote controlled recce drone unit back in 1979.)
Infact, I was talking about their versatility and ever evolving trait.

Originally Posted by Deltacamelately

Again, you are counting on the Soviets engineers more than they would deserve while facing a far superior army, with far superior fire power and experience(Don't forget their exploits against a highly maneuvering 1st Cavalry Division), than the Afghans could field.

Major,

I see no evidence that the 38GA and the 39GA were even on par with the Wehrmacht of WWII and the Germans were more than surprised on how fast they got surrounded because of those Soviet engineers. Do recall that the Chinese signals were even below that of the Germans even well into the 1980s. In fact, they were still relying on telephone instead of wireless during those border fiasco with India.

Another thing, the Soviets would have complete air supremacy. That alone would give them any advantage above company.

Also, I see no evidence the Chinese were successful against the 1CAV. True, the Chinese didn't back down ... but they did got mowed down.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Major,

I see no evidence that the 38GA and the 39GA were even on par with the Wehrmacht of WWII and the Germans were more than surprised on how fast they got surrounded because of those Soviet engineers. Do recall that the Chinese signals were even below that of the Germans even well into the 1980s. In fact, they were still relying on telephone instead of wireless during those border fiasco with India.

Sir,
Would that seriously be such a major impediment.

Another thing, the Soviets would have complete air supremacy. That alone would give them any advantage above company.

Sir,
Have you really ever thought over how many targets the PLAF would offer and how many Soviet fighters would they tie down?

Also, I see no evidence the Chinese were successful against the 1CAV. True, the Chinese didn't back down ... but they did got mowed down.

Sir,
That is an accepted fact. I had mentioned this on my previous post that elements of the 39th GA were the first PLA formation to fight against the American 1st Cavalry Division, and to score the first PLA victory against the division. In 1950, it defeated the American 25th Infantry Division, capturing over 100 soldiers of the 3rd Company, 24th Infantry Reg belonging to the 25ht Division. The prisoners included the first African-American POWs captured by PLA.

I'll try to find a link to authenticate in case you are not so confident.

Deltacamelately,

"Forts" still exist in Shangyang MR's orbat, each fort is equal to a reinforced regiment with heavy focus on artillery. Beijing MR's "forts" were decommissioned long ago when the cold war ended.

Originally Posted by Deltacamelately

Would that seriously be such a major impediment.

The axiom of the recce battle. Find the enemy. Blind the enemy. It's a lot easier to blind an enemy who's already deaf and mute.

Originally Posted by Deltacamelately

Have you really ever thought over how many targets the PLAF would offer and how many Soviet fighters would they tie down?

In 1979? Zero. PLAAF fighter defence was point defence, not area. Fighter coverage would not shift say from Beijing to Lop Nor mainly because radar coverage would not tell the Chinese that nothing is coming towards Beijing ... and their limited range precludes it.

Originally Posted by Deltacamelately

That is an accepted fact. I had mentioned this on my previous post that elements of the 39th GA were the first PLA formation to fight against the American 1st Cavalry Division, and to score the first PLA victory against the division. In 1950, it defeated the American 25th Infantry Division, capturing over 100 soldiers of the 3rd Company, 24th Infantry Reg belonging to the 25ht Division. The prisoners included the first African-American POWs captured by PLA.

I'll try to find a link to authenticate in case you are not so confident.

No need, Major, I am quite aware of the battles you speak of but there has been a recent re-assessement of those campaigns. The Chinese OPOBJs were not to evict the Eighth Army from Korea, they were to destroy the 8th Army. From that perspective, they failed.

Still, Major, again there is a big difference between the American Army of 1953 and 1979. And there's a big difference between the WWII victors and the army that smashed their way into Afghanistan. There was very little difference between the PVA of the Korean War and the PLA who went into Vietnam in 1979. The two wars the Chinese had fought in that time period, the 1st and 2nd Sino-VN Wars of 1979 and 1984 respectively showed that they were no match for the Soviets.