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Reply With QuoteSir, does that mean that if the Soviets had not gone into Afghanistan, they probably would have done something for Vietnam against China, regardless of how the West saw it?Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
In hindsight, the only thing that deterred the USSR was that they were too busy in Afghanistan.
Chimo
Sir, does that mean that if the Soviets had not gone into Afghanistan, they probably would have done something for Vietnam against China, regardless of how the West saw it?
I don't know.
We do know that the Soviets had planned to attack China with nuclear strikes on Peking/Beiging (just keeping historic context) and Lop Nor, the primary nuclear testing and staging area against Moscow. This was to be followed by an armoured thrust against both targets to kill both the 38th and 39th Group Armies.
The Chinese have learned of these plans and tried to react accordingly (the 38th and 39th never went south) but the speed in which the Soviet 58th Army went through Afghanistan would suggest that the PLA's 38 and 39 GAs were nothing more than meat.
Chimo
The Soviet's plan to attack China was made long before, in 1960s. Did it have anything to do with 1979 war? I would like to say the main reason of that war is China wanted to "teach Vietnam a lesson" as they said. Detterence or anything was invented later.
Soviet did help Vietnam to transport some divisions back from Cambodia to form the second line of defense. They didn't have chance to join the battle.
Well, and about using war to make peace, 1979 war led to 10 year of skirmishes along the border plus 1984 war, 1988 clash on the sea and still hatred and distrust between two people nowadays.
At the same time, Northern Vietnam is heavenly depended on electricity from China and agreed to the join patrol in South China Sea to enforce the fishery ban. Vietnam's economy is more dependent on China's FDI more than ever in this economic downturn.still hatred and distrust between two people nowadays.
Don't get me wrong, I do understand everyday Vietnamese's POV and their hate. But, everyone needs to move forward in the era of globalization. Think of it this way, ROK, Japan and China are each other largest trade partners, this is possible because when it came to economic relations, they can put their history aside.
Going back to the topic of the thread, China "did not" invaded Vietnam, it was attacking the Soviet Union from a position of weakness to break the stalemate (and some historian would argue that Deng was trying to draw Carter in the PRC's camp in 1979 and Joe Biden spend much of the early 1980 in China setting up Intel stations to monitor the old CCCP).
In this era of globalization, I think Deng was one of the last cold war warrior who thousands or millions lives means nothing as long as he an gain an upper hand in the geopolitics juxtaposition. In a way, I am glad the current PRC leadership no longer holds this view
The joint patrol will be in Tonkin Gulf. Vietnam protests against China fishing ban in disputed water and on Vietnamese fishermen. It is an official statement, not mine.
Of course Vietnam doesn't have enough patrol boat to protect our fishermen everywhere. The best method is to follow every movement of Chinese patrol boats. But I haven't heard anything about a joint patrol on South China Sea.
Back to the topic, I still deny it was China's "right" to make 1979 war to defend against Soviet or whatever.
Sir,
I would disagree and disagree very strongly here.
You are licentiously writing off an Army, elements of which were the first PLA formation to fight against the Yank's 1st Cavalry Division, and to score the first PLA victory against the division. In 1950, it defeated the American 25th Infantry Division, capturing over 100 soldiers of the 3rd Company, 24th
Infantry Reg belonging to the 25ht Division. The prisoners included the first African-American POWs captured by PLA. Sir, just to remind, elements of the 39th GA took parts in almost every campaign of the Korea War. Infact Jiang Zemin personally reviewed the troops of 39th GA after winning as one
of the Ace formation of the PLA under heavy snow, I don't remember the date though.
From our perspective and observation, in the winters of 1996, the 39th Group Army swept across the grassland to Tibet in thousands of motorized transport for conducting an exercise, which included 7 reconnaissance
companies acting as pathfinders. Remote control recce drones, infrared, GPS, and much other modern equipment were also used to aid thier mission. You just can not dismiss such a versatile and ever evolving force as dead meat. The 39th GA would surely have given the Russkies a bloody nose to say the least.
And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...
what is wrong with Vietnamese fisherman people?
South China Sea has been over fished that is a fact and all governments of that regions (ROC, PRC, and VN) accepted and they agreed on the fish ban since 1999 in an attempt to rebuild the fishery stock.
If Chinese fisherman (both PRC and ROC) can not fish that region, why Vietnamese fishermen with their protest can have an exception, just because they hate the Chinese? Keep in mind the Vietnamese Navy conducted 7 round of joint patrol to reinforcement the fish ban with China. Believe me, when the fish are gone, they are gone. Vietnamese fisherman can't not blame China on it as fish do not care about national boarders. Give the evnorment a break, would you. I understand your hate against the Chinese, but this time, they (PRC and ROC) are trying to do the right thing.
So, according to you defination, it is ok to illegal tol fish as long as they are in Chinese waters?
The governemnt of Vietnam does not have enough patrol boats to enforce the fish ban, how is that a Chinese imperialism?Vietnam doesn't have enough patrol boat
Last edited by xinhui; 25 Jun 09, at 10:53.
There is no such a thing as right, the government of Vietnam make the decision to ally with the Soviet, and they better able to live it it.Back to the topic, I still deny it was China's "right" to make 1979 war to defend against Soviet or whatever.
First, could you please show me that agreement about fishing ban on South China Sea? You are calling Vietnamese government liars because until now they insist they protest against that ban.
Second, this is the 3rd time I say Tonkin Gulf is different from South China Sea problem. Water border on that Gulf has been defined between two countries. All joint patrols occured there.
This is all about the dispute. China claims 80% of South China Sea, applies the ban on dispute water and uses force on our fishermen. Vietnam can not accept it. If the border is settled down, we can start talking about environment. If there is any agreement on ban, only WE have the right to patrol in OUR water and use force on OUR people. Until now there is no our water or China's water so forget it.
Another point: don't pretend that only Vietnamese hate Chinese. Let your Chinese friends remind you about proposed invasion plan last year and the call to attack Vietnam this year using North Korea crisis as cover.
1973 was the 1st time we knew of any such plans.
The fact that they moved their two best armies north instead of south would suggest that the Chinese didn't think the 1979 1st Sino-VN War was worth their best effort and that they had a more important military task than Hanoi.
The fact that they took Afghanistan in less than a month would suggest that they could have attacked China anytime they wanted.
The PLA would disagree with you.
1) The PLA knew that they had no chance in a battle of maneuver against the Soviet Army. Thus, they were relying on Stalingrad type fortifications and blocking the mountain passes.
2) As demonstrated in the 1979 1st Sino-VN War, PLA's battle field signals ... well, they didn't exist.
3) RPGs made swiss cheese out of Chinese armour in that same war.
What the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan demonstrated that distance and terrain were no obstacles to the Soviets. They built roads ... in the middle of winter through that country. The same kind of terrain that the Chinese were relying on to slow/stop Soviet columns.
It was not that the 39GA would be unwilling to fight but that they would be hopelessly outmanuvered, outgunned, and out-positioned by the Soivet 58th Army.
Oh, Major, there is a big difference between the 39GA of 1979 and the 39GA of 1996. Least of all that they got their 2nd wake up call from the 1990 Kuwait War.
What are you talking about?
Chimo
My starting point was the idea that war can bring long lasting peace is terribly wrong. War creates hatred and hatred is more dangerous than any other cause of war. xinhua keeps on talking about he understands "our hate against Chinese". I just want to remind him that Chineses are not victim in this case.
Those invasion plans are not from PRC government. They were proposed by former Chinese military personals and members of Chinese defense forum. Vietnam government has officially protested against the invasion plan last year and received explaination from PRC government. IMO, they are nothing but only reflect the feeling of Chinese people and military toward Vietnam.
col yu,
i wonder if the chinese ever considered nuclear mines, particularly if they were going to do the whole stalingrad thing.The Chinese have learned of these plans and tried to react accordingly (the 38th and 39th never went south) but the speed in which the Soviet 58th Army went through Afghanistan would suggest that the PLA's 38 and 39 GAs were nothing more than meat.
The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"
-Leo Tolstoy
War and Peace
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