Thread: Tibet protest in a perspective.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

You've missed the point here. Both sides can't even begin negotiations on common ground.

Except that Stalin did fought the Catholic World and crushed them. Germany and Italy were Catholic Powers.

No Soviet troops were ever in Italy. Soviet only had 1/3 of Germany and suffered a greater loss of life than Germany. Besides Germany is predominantly a Lutheran country, not a Catholic country unless all the cathedrals and the Reformation churches and musuems that I have visited during my trip to Germany were mistaken.

Notice the strong presence of the Catholic church in Poland despite the Soviet presence. They did not dare to mess with the appointment of priests, cardinals, etc.

Ehhh, Hitesh, both men were already combat veterans before the Dali Lama was 16 years old.

And they couldn't crush Dali Lamai despite their combat records.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

No Soviet troops were ever in Italy. Soviet only had 1/3 of Germany and suffered a greater loss of life than Germany. Besides Germany is predominantly a Lutheran country, not a Catholic country unless all the cathedrals and the Reformation churches and musuems that I have visited during my trip to Germany were mistaken.

I have no idea what I was thinking when I said Germany was Catholic. Becoming very old right now. In any case, unless the US was going to ship Catholic divisions from South America, Stalin had nothing to worry about and what I meant about Italy is that he smashed those Italian divisions facing him away.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Notice the strong presence of the Catholic church in Poland despite the Soviet presence. They did not dare to mess with the appointment of priests, cardinals, etc.

Stalin didn't have to. You will note that Solidarity only came into being after the passing of the Old Guard.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

And they couldn't crush Dali Lamai despite their combat records.

Errrrhhh, yeah, they did. They have Tibet and they've kept Tibet. And they've brainwashed the Tibetan Youth away from the idea that the Dali Lama is a living god.

As far as the Black Hats are concerned, there is a whole lot of skulduggery.

There are two 17th Karmapas — Ogyen Trinley Dorje (also spelled Urgyen Trinley Dorje) and Trinley Thaye Dorje — each supported by at least one important lama from the Kagyu lineage. Both have already been enthroned as 17th Karmapas, and both independently have been performing ceremonial duties. They have not met or conversed.

This situation has led to adjustment and necessary accommodation by Kagyu followers all over the world, even to the extent of some reactively levelling accusations of dishonesty at Situ Rinpoche. The main accusation of dishonesty hinges around a prediction letter that Situ Rinpoche claimed to have received from the 16th Karmapa. To date he has refused any request to have it scientifically analysed, claiming this would be a violation of a sacred object.

A historical precedent for doubling or addition of manifestations of a reincarnated tulku from his predecessor is acknowledged in the prophecy of the second Karmapa, Karma Pakshi, that "future Karmapas shall manifest in two forms".

Of the two 17th Karmapas, Ogyen Trinley Dorje has been recognized by Situ Rinpoche and Gyaltsab Rinpoche. In July 1992, both asked the Office of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala to confirm their recognition. The 14th Dalai Lama confirmed the recognition of Ogyen Trinley Dorje. The head of the Sakya school, H.H. Sakya Trizin and the head of the Nyingma school at that time, H.H. Mindroling Trichen Rinpoche also recognised Ogyen Trinley Dorje as a reincarnation of the 16th Karmapa and composed long-life prayers for him. The government of the People's Republic of China has also accepted him.

The first born Karmapa, Trinley Thaye Dorje, has been recognized by H.H. Shamar Rinpoche - the senior Kagyu official below the Karmapas themselves.

H.E. Beru Khentse Rinpoche is an example of one authority enthusiasticly professing the legitimacy of both incarnations. Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche said that 'as far as my father' (Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche) 'was concerned, they were both to be respected and perceived with pure appreciation'.

For those from all perspectives, the issue has been engaging, with many praying for the ability of the Karmapas to do their dharmic duties and teachings. Lamas have urged their students to continue their practice sincerely and to remain compassionate and forgiving and as open minded as possible to those who, consciously or otherwise, appear to prefer one ahead of both. Karma Kagyu teachers such as Ole Nydahl have said that the spiritual realization of the Karmapas and their worthiness as reincarnations will be shown clearly by their future actions.

As per the BBC programme Dateline London, it was stated that no country would put pressure on China because of the huge Chinese market, nor would there be any boycott of the Olympics.

However, they speculated that the Olympics could be used by those supporting the Tibetans, by using non violent means like wearing Free Tibet shirts, leading to reaction by the Chinese authorities and it creating a poor image in front of the foreign visitors and journalists.

During the Olympics, if certain parts of China are made off limits to the foreigners, it too would showcase a poor image of China.

Things are not quite what it should be.

Difficult times ahead for China.

Originally Posted by Ray

During the Olympics, if certain parts of China are made off limits to the foreigners, it too would showcase a poor image of China.

Sir,

As far as I know, visitors to the Olympics are restricted to Beijing.

I am not thinking what it would have been like, that is the problem, we will never know, the strength of the religious body, of the influence of other nations (not just China) many factors could be at work, we will never know, you however seem to be quite informed on the matter may be you have more experience and understanding of the people and the culture, however, i will not make such comparisons.

And i can certainly see that Tibet has as much of religious freedom as we have, every refugee braving the treacherous path to India comes with stories of the religious freedom they have.

The Great Proliterate Cultural Revolution impacted all of China's neighbours and in fact, caused the Sino-Soviet clashes of the late 1960s-early 1970s. The Khmer Rouge got their support from China at the time in a communist expansion that wrecked all of SE Asia. Cambodia's King was just as popular as the Dali Lama was and he got swept aside by a self-induced genocide that is basically a crazed version of the Chinese GPCR. Destroy the Old so that you can bring in the New. The Chinese sent their old to labour camps. The Khmer Rouge sent theirs to the Killing Fields.

I know the Tibetans blame the Chinese for the destruction of their temples and the imprisoning of their monks during this time period but the truth is that the Tibetan Red Guards were Tibetans, not Chinese. Tibetan youths, brainwashed and blessed by Mao Tse-Tung, were the ones who destroyed the temples and arrested and humiliated the monks in parades across Tibet.

At the very least, if Tibet stayed independent, she would be wrecked by internal turmoil equal to that of Nepal and Burma ... caused by the Chinese export of her revolution.

But the young being young, eager to rebel, I can see how they can grasp Mao's Little Red Book as their bible and banner.

Savage Minds: Notes and Queries in Anthropology — A Group Blog » The Resistance is Dead! Long Live the Resistance!

May be, the Tibetans have respect for the values to this day, and had connections inside India, and they would have had a enemy to rebel against, that being the communist China (of course), or may be like our rebel boys they would have enjoyed the booze and the fighting afterwards.
As i said things that will be hard to predict.

Interesting to say the least.

Perhaps that would have been a better way to influence the matters in Tibet.

Of the Tibetans involved with the Chinese, i think they would be seen as traitors to the cause, opportunists who sold out, in the end adding more flame to the fire then stopping it.

I do not think the Tibetan red guards will ever be viewed as anything else outside the foreign invasion.

I am reminded of my grandfather from my mothers side, his father was quite popular amongst the local representatives of the RAJ in India, he turned out to be an absolute rebel, who gained the family more respect after the end of the RAJ.
And the police was never actually seen as Indian in nature, they were thought of as people who sold themselves for money.

Of the very few Tibetans i knew from Dehradun and Delhi, and some i talked to on my short stay in dharamshala, these points of views are indeed rare, perhaps i could engage in more conversations with them if i see them again.

The unfortunate part is the absolute lack of leadership living in Tibet with confidence of the Tibetan masses.

They could bring in a much informed point of view about the situation, sadly as i said earlier, that will never be so in the Chinese set up.

All in all, very interesting points you have raised, thank you for sharing these views.

The issue of independence, though an issue with the Tibetans, is something that may not be feasible if one appreciates the geopolitical scenario.

The lure of the huge Chinese market, more so with the advent of recession in the US and its negative effects globally, has ensured that the Tibetan cause will not evoke the same sympathy as it would have done in the heydays when China was a closed country and chastised as the Bamboo Curtain. Money, indeed, speaks!

The issue that is the apparent is the Tibetan belief that they are being marginalised in their own homeland by non Tibetans and that the economic and other benefits of modernisation is being reaped in greater proportions by non Tibetans and more so, through the tacit connivance of the Chinese govt.

With the advent of the Tibetan Railway and its opening up Tibet to Chinese tourists, the presence of non Tibetans appears more threatening to the beleaguered Tibetans. It maybe totally psychological, but it does affect the mind, especially of a minority.

While the non Tibetan permanent presence in Tibet is said to be less than that of Tibetans, yet Lhasa and Nyingtri have a heavy influx of non Tibetans. This is exclusive of the the population mix in the Qinghai Province and the the Tibetan Autonomous Prefectures in the neighbouring Provinces.

There is a feeling amongst the Tibetan that there culture and their religious beliefs are being re-engineered to suit the Chinese govt's plan to reduce their singular identity as a race.

One of my theories for Han economic predominance in the western areas is that the best and brightest ethnic Tibetan and Uyghiur traders go to Beijing and other areas (after all, it's more profitable there) where due to the rule of numbers, they aren't anywhere as noticeable.

You maybe right, but if one has observed the Hans in non Chinese areas, they are the best businessmen one can find. And they are very industrious and enterprising.

Singapore is an example. And so are the Chinese in Malaysia. Try as the Malays and Mahathir want with all their Bhumiputra nonsense, they cannot impose Islam there because the Chinese hold the economy.

In the recent Malaysian elections, the Penang Besar Mentri (Chief Minister) , who is a Chinese, has threatened to do away with all this Bhumiputra stuff and that has raised the hornet's nest. I don't know the latest!!

I find them fascinating!

Oh, do you mean the Gerakan former chief minister, or the currently serving DAP chief minister (I assume its the latter but I'm just making sure)

DAP.

I think his name is Guan Eng.