US admirals criticize China over Hong Kong port calls

**gunnut** · 13 Dec 07,, 06:54

Of course I don't mean to belittle China's achievement in such a short time. It's quite impressive really. However to over take or even reach parity with the west will still take a long time. That has to start from research and design. Copying can only get you so far.

Then we come to a very basic problem with today's Chinese development. Chinese society doesn't stress individuality and creativity. The education system focuses on memorization rather than (I hate to use this term) critical thinking. I don't mean they are all robots. But most of them are. Very well programmed robots, I might add.

Our education system focuses on individuality and creativity. We crank out a lot of very creative scientists. Of course the downside is we also have a bunch of zombies walking the streets. Very stupid, very slow, very stubborn zombies.

This is kinda off topic and needs a totally seperate thread to talk about.

**Vinod2070** · 13 Dec 07,, 07:13

I was more concerned about India than China.

I disagree with people who try to belittle my country's genuine achievements (not pointing to you, gunnut), feel that due to the myriad social problems that we have, we don't have a right to excel in any high-tech field which are supposedly a turf of some exclusive countries as per them.

We will decide what works for us. We may definitely use the learnings from others but we need to decide our development model.

And I don't think we should aim for any kind of competition with the west. They have a 100 year lead or more. We need to be pragmatic but firm and think long term. The gap will narrow over time and you will see more and more innovation coming out of my country. It has already started in a trickle.

Yup it got a bit off-topic. The thread got derailed, now its time to get it back on the rails as it were.

**sheep21** · 13 Dec 07,, 07:38

UK should have kept the Island proper and just given back the New Territories in 1997.

Ah well, a man can dream

**gunnut** · 13 Dec 07,, 22:38

Originally Posted by sheep21

UK should have kept the Island proper and just given back the New Territories in 1997.

Ah well, a man can dream

The problem was UK couldn't do a thing if China decides one day to just "annex" the island.

The original lease was open-ended I believe. Then as the British Empire gradually lost strength and China gradually gaining strength, it was recognized by both sides that a peaceful transfer is much more preferable and face saving rather than an open confrontation.

This is not Taiwan sitting 150km off shore with a sizeable military to deter invasion. This is a tiny port city with only a symbolic garrison for law enforcement.

I've been to Hong Kong. I think the brits did an astounding job to develop it. I would rather the brits stayed. But at least China granted Hong Kong a certain degree of autonamy. And best of all, mandarin is now more prevalent in Hong Kong as opposed to before.

**Zeng** · 14 Dec 07,, 01:05

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Zeng,

What's your handle at CDF?

OOE Sir,

Following the links you provided in WAB, I visited CDF and read some very interesting and informative articles there. But I never registered on CDF.

**Zeng** · 14 Dec 07,, 01:14

Originally Posted by gunnut

You've never heard of AMD? Advanced Micro Devices, Intel's main and possibly only rival in the CPU market.

I never heard of Intel too. Is it a branch of CIA?

I never heard of CPU manufactures of Intel and AMD. But you never heard your new AMD missile defense system except from me in #42 post, right?

Just kidding.

Originally Posted by gunnut

Supercomputers aren't a single giant machine with a single super powerful processor inside.

Supercomputers are usually built by linking dozens, sometimes hundreds, of personal computers together in a cluster to share the computaion load.

The processors in these machines are usually made by Intel or AMD.

China’s Dawning 4000A supercomputer uses a cluster of 2,560 AMD processors.

Dawning Information Industry (beijing) Co.,LTD

Quote from above web:
Dawning 4000A supercomputer uses AMD's latest Optern processor, represents the highest HPC level of China. In the global super-computer ranking list announced on June 22, 2004, Dawning 4000A, due to its 11 Trillion Times/s calculation speed and 8.0610 Trillion Times/s of LINPACK calculation value, enables China to become the third country to develop more than 10 trillion commercialized high-performance computer, only after the United States and Japan.

I think that the above information is pretty old. They should update their website a little bit faster.

Originally Posted by gunnut

I'm not aware of any other companies in the world that can manufacture powerful CPUs at low prices like that. There might be some boutique designs. But boutique means very expensive to manufacture.

That Chinese CPU is very impressive. It's probably 2 generations behind Intel's processors. Too bad it doesn't run x86 instructions and will be limited to Unix type systems.

Next year, Dawning’s next generation supercomputer Dawning 5000A will use Chinese-developed Long-Xin III processor and reputedly it will be 10 times faster than the current 10TFLOPS 4000A system.

100TF Chinese supercomputer expected to debut next year | insideHPC.com

China is boycotted from getting the latest supercomputer from west. China needs to develop its own. Whenever China successfully develop a new generation of supercomputer, west countries open to sell China a better one.

Other Chinese supercompter information:

Lenovo leads effort to build 1,000 TFLOPS supercomputer (a little bit old news)

Lenovo leads effort to build 1,000 TFLOPS supercomputer | InfoWorld | News | 2005-07-28 | By Sumner Lemon, IDG News Service

AT&T Williams F1 Team Gets Lenovo Supercomputer (China started to export supercomputer beside shoes and clothes)

AT&T Williams F1 Team Gets Lenovo Supercomputer - Smarthouse

It seems that Chinese government was advocating the use of Linux operating system. China, Japan and S. Korea even signed agreements to cooperate on Linux software development.

**Zeng** · 14 Dec 07,, 01:50

Originally Posted by gunnut

Of course I don't mean to belittle China's achievement in such a short time. It's quite impressive really. However to over take or even reach parity with the west will still take a long time. That has to start from research and design. Copying can only get you so far.

Then we come to a very basic problem with today's Chinese development. Chinese society doesn't stress individuality and creativity. The education system focuses on memorization rather than (I hate to use this term) critical thinking. I don't mean they are all robots. But most of them are. Very well programmed robots, I might add.

Our education system focuses on individuality and creativity. We crank out a lot of very creative scientists. Of course the downside is we also have a bunch of zombies walking the streets. Very stupid, very slow, very stubborn zombies.

This is kinda off topic and needs a totally seperate thread to talk about.

Overall, I agree with your comments here although it derailed the topic of this thread.

Chinese education system and society should stress more on the individuality and creativity when education is getting more and more available to everyone. Comparing my son’s school works in US and in China, I can see that the American education system has more individuality and creativity.

Some of the American public schools in the poor communities should stress more on the discipline. So many people around world don’t have this kind of education opportunity. But many students there don’t treasure it at all.

But, many American public schools in the suburbs are giving very high quality education. Most of the kids are also studying hard.

**Zeng** · 14 Dec 07,, 01:53

Originally Posted by sheep21

UK should have kept the Island proper and just given back the New Territories in 1997.

Ah well, a man can dream

Originally Posted by gunnut

The problem was UK couldn't do a thing if China decides one day to just "annex" the island.

The original lease was open-ended I believe. Then as the British Empire gradually lost strength and China gradually gaining strength, it was recognized by both sides that a peaceful transfer is much more preferable and face saving rather than an open confrontation.

This is not Taiwan sitting 150km off shore with a sizeable military to deter invasion. This is a tiny port city with only a symbolic garrison for law enforcement.

I've been to Hong Kong. I think the brits did an astounding job to develop it. I would rather the brits stayed. But at least China granted Hong Kong a certain degree of autonamy. And best of all, mandarin is now more prevalent in Hong Kong as opposed to before.

I visited Hong Kong several times before and after 1997 and agree that British did a good job there. The night of Victoria Harbor is always beautiful and romantic.

But I don’t want British stay in control there beyond 1997 and was glad that Hong Kong became a special zone for the practice of “one country two systems”.

The New Territories were leased from Qing to Britain in 1898 for 99 years in the Second Convention of Peking. The treaty ended in 1997. Theoretically, Hong Kong Island and Kowloon had been ceded to the Britain in perpetuity. But they are colonies and 20th century is the decolonization century.

Please read the link below. British were reluctant to return Hong Kong at that time but they had no choice.

Transfer of the sovereignty of Hong Kong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

British were smarter than the Portuguese in Goa (India) and they made right decision to return Hong Kong. Portuguese in Goa refused India's demand and became POWs of Indian army in 1961.

Learned lesson from Goa, Portuguese withdrew their army from Macau in 1970s and proposed to return Macau to China in 1970s or 1980s. But China decided to deal with Macau after Hong Kong.

Macau was ceded to Portugese's control in perpetuity by Qing dynasty in 1887.

Best wishes to everyone. Have a nice day and enjoy a nice holiday season.

**Officer of Engineers** · 14 Dec 07,, 06:06

Originally Posted by Zeng_xinren

OOE Sir,

Following the links you provided in WAB, I visited CDF and read some very interesting and informative articles there. But I never registered on CDF.

I would suggest that you do. It is an academic forum, meaning the posts are done with academic support in mind, ie newspaper articles are often posted with no elaboration but merely a collection of data. Suffice to say that your posts would be met with challenges by established authors on the subject. It would most certainly keep you on your toes as to your references.

**Ray** · 14 Dec 07,, 07:56

Zeng,

Quite a few posts are in Chinese!

It is very academic and they don't like loose ended comments!

**Dreadnought** · 14 Dec 07,, 19:29

Originally Posted by Zeng_xinren

Smart, China turns your warships away and you turn China’s commercial ships away!

Oh, you are even a better strategic thinker and more patriotic than gunnut while gunnut is a better strategic thinker and more patriotic than that US admiral.

So, I think that you should be the US admiral or at least you should give this suggestion to that US admiral.

He definitely should accept your suggestion. If he doesn’t, please do Hunger Strike until he accepts.

The only small shortcoming of your suggestion may be that Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, Sears, Dollar Trees and so many American malls may get some hard time and don’t like your suggestion.

You see, we have lot of capitalist allies in America working for us. They are much more loyal and reliable than your allies in Iraq.

Not only some democrats are on our payroll (as alleged by someone here on WAB), but also those republican supporters, the big corp. CEOs are certainly on our payroll.

Have you ever watched those congress hearings about business relation with China? The Q&A apparently indicates that those CEOs are definitely working for China not for America.

Those CEOs even defended China’s lead products while China is apologizing for it and making effort to correct it.

Your congress and president wouldn’t even bother to listen to the suggestions from you patriotic guys. They prefer to listen to the big corp. CEOs who are on our payroll.

Zeng,
My point is this. Maritime tradition. And all countries who have sailed/steamed since the beginning of ocean bearing travel all have knowledge of maritime tradition and most nations (civilized) regard them as law. Even know per say they are not written law. But the point still exists that you do not turn ships away that are seeking shelter from a storm. Be it your advisary or not.

**Bella** · 15 Dec 07,, 08:31

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Zeng,
My point is this. Maritime tradition. And all countries who have sailed/steamed since the beginning of ocean bearing travel all have knowledge of maritime tradition and most nations (civilized) regard them as law. Even know per say they are not written law. But the point still exists that you do not turn ships away that are seeking shelter from a storm. Be it your advisary or not.

You are absolutely correct. The only problem the Chinese fail to understand is that they have no blue water navy to they fail to understand. The only blue water Navy they do have are trading ships.

**~~Adux~~** · 15 Dec 07,, 09:33

Originally Posted by Bella

You are absolutely correct. The only problem the Chinese fail to understand is that they have no blue water navy to they fail to understand. The only blue water Navy they do have are trading ships.

They are building, and they are building a formidable one. You will only see difference in a decade and half.

**Bella** · 15 Dec 07,, 23:32

Originally Posted by Adux

They are building, and they are building a formidable one. You will only see difference in a decade and half.

True, but what I'm saying when they do, will the U.S. return the favor when they need shelter from a storm?

**sheep21** · 16 Dec 07,, 03:59

Originally Posted by Bella

True, but what I'm saying when they do, will the U.S. return the favor when they need shelter from a storm?

you would hope so, after all, if they didn't it would only reflect badly on the U.S

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