Top Chinese diplomat tells US to 'shut up' on arms spending

**xerxes** · 15 Feb 07,, 23:15

thanks guys
I do know the difference between PRC and ROC, it just that I find is puzzeling that there is a seperatist movement for Taiwan, considering the fact that Taiwan is part of ROC - that is confined to Taiwan. It is like Kuwait been completely independent from Iraq but yet there will be a seperatist movement to declare independence.

So from what you guys have wrote, I understand that the independence movement will basically say that "we relinquish our claims over the main land" ... henceforward Taiwan is in independent nation .... whereas before ROC's claim also covered the entire China .. am i correct???

for some reason I always lumped ROC and Taiwan together ... i guess i was wrong ...

**Zeng** · 16 Feb 07,, 02:06

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

There won't be any declaration. There is actually popular hostility towards the idea. Also, there is no legal ground work done for such a declaration. It is against the ROC's constitution to declare independence.

This being said, there is nothing for Taiwan to gain and everything to lose by unification. Even if Beijing surrenders to Taipei and invites the Nationalist Party back to rule China, 27 million people cannot dictate terms to 1.2 billion.

Chen Shuibian is trying to change the constitution. He is also trying to get a Taiwanese public vote for the independence. Let wait to see if he can do it. In order to do it, he needs enough courage to against both China and America.

Keeping status quo is perfectly OK to us. We don't want unification now. We hope Taiwan to be prosperous to continue invest in mainland China.

Personaly, my relatives are living in Taiwan, I wish them well. We would never attack Taiwan and there is no need to attack Taiwan.

Taiwan is the God Send Gift to China and all Chinese around the world.

Taiwan has already helped mainland China's reform and rapid economic development. It sets a good example for mainland China to study. It shows the potential that Chinese can achieve in merely half century. It will test mainland China's patient and intelligence to make China maturer and smarter.

Mainland China doesn't need to dictate Taiwan. Mainland China has the tolerance and courage in the future to let Taiwanese join mainland China's leaderships while not interve theirs. The market and human resouce in mainland China can give Taiwan a better future.

Taiwan is allowed to have its military, its independent social system and its independent economic system even after unification with mainland China in the future. We don't take their hard earn money. If Taiwan has difficult, we can help. Right now, famers in southern Taiwan can not sell all their fruits, Mainland China tries its best to buy some. In the future, when Mainland China become richer, we may be able to help more. Southern Taiwanese are the base for pro-independence.

The only thing we need is that it will not become our enemy or a pawn of other countries to against mainland China.

Mainland China will not go anywhere like it or not. If Taiwan wants to have a stable future, better not be hostile to Mainland China.

Be friend, we win-win. Be enemy, we loss-loss.

**Zeng** · 16 Feb 07,, 02:22

Originally Posted by gunnut

You are missing the 3rd element in this situation. That being the independence movement.

You have the PRC, which controls China.

You have the ROC, which controls Taiwan.

Then you have the independence movement, which is in Taiwan.

PRC and ROC both support the "one China" policy, stating Taiwan is a part of China. The difference between them is who should be in charge. PRC wants to be in charge of the whole thing while ROC wants to be in charge of the whole thing as well. You can't have 2 leaders. Hence the divide.

The independence movement wants Taiwan to be a seperate nation, away from China. They don't want to be a part of the PRC nor a part of ROC. They want to be Taiwan Republic.

If you get down to the very bone of the issue, it's all about culture and ethnicity. Taiwanese don't believe they are Chinese. Chinese believe Taiwanese are Chinese, and want to rule over them.

gunnut Sir,

Even the one who hated China the most, Nixon, can come to China to shake hand with Mao while American and Chinese were fighting with each other in Vietnam, then Taiwanese can come to mainland China to shake hand with us.

Not all Taiwanese don't believe they are Chinese. The Blue Group in Taiwan still keep a future goal to reunite with mainland China. Their major leaders visited mainland China last year to acknowledge that.

We don't want to rule over them. We didn't rule over HongKong and Macau when they came back. During Asian financial crisis, we helped them.

We don't want to rule over anyone else except ourselves. Mainland China promised that we can negotiate any condition except independence.

Independence means war. But war is not needed.

There were pro-independence businessmen. Some of them were even the consultants of Chen Shuibian. When mainland China announced that pro-independence businessmen are not welcome in mainland China, those people changed their position. They either gave up the consultant position, or even start to praise the China's "One country two systems" policy applied in HongKong. But China said, we will give Taiwan much better condition.

A famous famle Taiwanese singer who singed Taiwan's national song during Chen Shuibian's presidential inauguration. The mainland Chinese asked goverment to ban her songs and concerts in mainland China. Chinese goverment was smart enough and refused it. But few people buy her song and when she came to mainland, few people buy the ticket for her concerts. She used to be very famous in mainland China. Eventially, she made an announcement that she didn't want to sing on that presidential inauguration and was asked to do so. She will not do it again. Then, she was welcome again.

We really don't need to fight. We have much better way to keep Taiwan around.

**astralis** · 16 Feb 07,, 03:48

zeng xinren,

A famous famle Taiwanese singer who singed Taiwan's national song during Chen Shuibian's presidential inauguration. The mainland Chinese asked goverment to ban her songs and concerts in mainland China. Chinese goverment was smart enough and refused it. But few people buy her song and when she came to mainland, few people buy the ticket for her concerts. She used to be very famous in mainland China. Eventially, she made an announcement that she didn't want to sing on that presidential inauguration and was asked to do so. She will not do it again. Then, she was welcome again.

you mean the case of a-mei. you're wrong: in 2000, the CCP banned her from coming to china, and even pressured companies within china to drop her as an advertising icon. but you're right, though, this pressure doesn't just come from the CCP. the more recent case of yang chenglin (楊丞琳) comes to mind, with that internet boycott thing.

i say this to you now, as a pro-unification taiwanese, that it is THIS type of behavior that turns off taiwanese to the whole idea of unification. both the actions of the ultra-nationalists in question AND the government. this type of firecracker sensitivity is enough to annoy anyone.

granted, taiwanese politics is not very mature yet itself. however, if riots and protests occur every time a mere pop star- not even a politician- says something that might be even construed as in the least bit "pro-independence", then you can see why taiwanese aren't very eager to re-unify with china, even those whom identify (as i do) with chinese and chinese culture.

**xrough** · 16 Feb 07,, 04:09

If majority of the Taiwanese wanted to be independent from China I think mainland should respect it..and they would probably more cooperation between them if they become two nations..

**Zeng** · 16 Feb 07,, 04:22

Originally Posted by astralis

zeng xinren,

you mean the case of a-mei. you're wrong: in 2000, the CCP banned her from coming to china, and even pressured companies within china to drop her as an advertising icon. but you're right, though, this pressure doesn't just come from the CCP. the more recent case of yang chenglin (楊丞琳) comes to mind, with that internet boycott thing.

i say this to you now, as a pro-unification taiwanese, that it is THIS type of behavior that turns off taiwanese to the whole idea of unification. both the actions of the ultra-nationalists in question AND the government. this type of firecracker sensitivity is enough to annoy anyone.

granted, taiwanese politics is not very mature yet itself. however, if riots and protests occur every time a mere pop star- not even a politician- says something that might be even construed as in the least bit "pro-independence", then you can see why taiwanese aren't very eager to re-unify with china, even those whom identify (as i do) with chinese and chinese culture.

astralis,

I thought that the government didn't involve in the case of a-mei and thought that was a smart move. But I could be wrong and would like to stand corrected.

Ultra-nationalists are not correct and I think that you can read that I am not one. But certain degree of nationalism is not avoidable. If I heard that someone is pro-independence, I would not buy her disks and concert tickets. I wouldn't buy anything she advertised. Although, for a singer, I don't think that goverment should get involved. If they did, it was stupid.

Should "singing a song in Chen Shuibian's presidential inauguration" count for pro-independence? It is a debateable question. At least she wouldn't give me a good impression for doing it for Chen Shuibian's presidential inauguration.

I agree that it is still far too ealy for re-unification. We still have too much misunderstanding with each other. Both of us are not mature enough to deal with the huge challenge associated with re-unification. Keeping status quo, increasing people to people communication, improving the understanding with each other are the things for us to do now.

**beka** · 16 Feb 07,, 05:10

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The US strongly discourages any independence movement. However, you're out of whack as far as Taiwan is concerned. Taiwan was NEVER under the People's Republic of China's control. Taiwan has always been under the Republic of China's control just as when the RoC once ruled all of China. The PRC has no ownership of the island whatsoever.

I strongly advise you to study the ROCA and their defence plans for the island. It would be the Taiwanese who will do the majority of the fighting, dying, and winning.

I know perfectly well the history between PROC and ROCA. After World War II, the Communists and the National government of China had a civil war over who would control China. The Communists won, and the Nationalist government fled to exile in Tawian. Tawian was an island that was sometimes part of China, and also sometimes controlled by the Japanese, but it was granted back to China after World War II. Currently, the Taiwanese government claims that they are the legit government of mainland China too, and for a long time the United States recognized them as such. It was the US promise to defend Taiwan which has kept China from attacking her.

While yes there are Taiwanese who are not ethnic Chinese on the island, there are also plenty of people on the island who are ethnic Chinese.

Here's the deal, if the defense plan calls for primary Taiwanese defense, than fine but why exactly do we have to get involved? I'll tell you why because right now it looks like if our country didn't get involved, China would win.

This is an internal Chinese matter. If the Taiwanese want their independence, than as far as I'm concerned let them get it alone. There is no reason for us to get involved.

I read a book today and it was talking about future goals of the US, global war on terror economy etc. And one of the books points was that it compared the China to the position the United States was at the beginning of the last century. Basically it said that we should lock in China (as a future ally) now while it is at a low price. One way to lock them in, is to stay out of the whole Taiwan affair. War with China could be disasterous for the US economy even if we won, why exactly is Taiwan worth it?

**gunnut** · 16 Feb 07,, 05:24

Originally Posted by Zeng_xinren

gunnut Sir,

Even the one who hated China the most, Nixon, can come to China to shake hand with Mao while American and Chinese were fighting with each other in Vietnam, then Taiwanese can come to mainland China to shake hand with us.

Not all Taiwanese don't believe they are Chinese. The Blue Group in Taiwan still keep a future goal to reunite with mainland China. Their major leaders visited mainland China last year to acknowledge that.

We don't want to rule over them. We didn't rule over HongKong and Macau when they came back. During Asian financial crisis, we helped them.

We don't want to rule over anyone else except ourselves. Mainland China promised that we can negotiate any condition except independence.

But it's more than that.

The independence faction don't consider themselves Chinese. They don't want to have anything to do with China, PRC or ROC. You may not want to rule over them. You may be perfectly happy to let Taiwan be a autonamous region like Hong Kong. But the fact that they cannot be called the Republic of Taiwan is unacceptable to them. I believe this has to do with ethnicity and culture. They simply don't believe they are Chinese any more than Japanese or Korean.

Originally Posted by Zeng_xinren

Independence means war.

That's the attitude which will actually contribute to independence. If Taiwanese are anything like Americans, they will hate to be told what to do. We hate to be told what to do. Ask us nicely and we will talk and compromise. Tell us to do something and most likely we'll just ignore you.

Originally Posted by Zeng_xinren

But war is not needed.

Agreed. War is bad for business. An unstable China/Taiwan situation is bad for global business.

**xrough** · 16 Feb 07,, 06:37

Taiwanese wants to be independent and China will not allow it and prepared to use force upon declaration of Taiwan Independence that what I think is the major concern..why the US must interfere?well, on my own opinion, Taiwan is democratic and China is a communist..US is well-known in spreading democracy in the world that's probably why US still holds for democratic Taiwan..

**beka** · 16 Feb 07,, 13:27

Originally Posted by gunnut

But it's more than that.

The independence faction don't consider themselves Chinese. They don't want to have anything to do with China, PRC or ROC. You may not want to rule over them. You may be perfectly happy to let Taiwan be a autonamous region like Hong Kong. But the fact that they cannot be called the Republic of Taiwan is unacceptable to them. I believe this has to do with ethnicity and culture. They simply don't believe they are Chinese any more than Japanese or Korean.

From what I gather the majority of people on the island are ethnic Chinese. When the Nationalist party went to Taiwan, they put down bloodly the "ethnic" Taiwanese. There are a lot of family ties between the two countries...

And the fact that there are ethnic Taiwanese would mean nothing to China, there are plenty of minorities in China. One gets independence others will want it.

The Chinese position may seem unreasonable to you, but hey quess what there is a movement currently in Haiwai that wants to leave the US...So do you think they should have the right to "vote themselves out, seeing as the ethnic population had the United States forced on them."

For most of the Chinese in China Taiwan independence means war. And if there government failed to respond, well it could find itself losing its people's confidence. This may seem unreasonable, but nationalism isn't always reasonable.

**Officer of Engineers** · 16 Feb 07,, 14:14

Originally Posted by beka

Here's the deal, if the defense plan calls for primary Taiwanese defense, than fine but why exactly do we have to get involved? I'll tell you why because right now it looks like if our country didn't get involved, China would win.

Hogwash. There is no plan that anyone that could come up with that the PLA will manage to defeat the 400,000 strong ROCA.

Originally Posted by beka

This is an internal Chinese matter. If the Taiwanese want their independence, than as far as I'm concerned let them get it alone. There is no reason for us to get involved.

The US is involved because the US wants to be involved.

Originally Posted by beka

War with China could be disasterous for the US economy even if we won, why exactly is Taiwan worth it?

Because the US gave her word. The US keeps her word. And it would be even more disastrous if China gets away with it and the US is seen as too chicken to stand up to China.

**xerxes** · 16 Feb 07,, 14:59

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Because the US gave her word. The US keeps her word. And it would be even more disastrous if China gets away with it and the US is seen as too chicken to stand up to China.

it would be for the US indeed.

The phrase that I put in bold ... do you think that it is always like that.

**Officer of Engineers** · 16 Feb 07,, 15:31

Of course not. Vietnam comes to mind. However, in the case of Taiwan, it is US law to come to her defence.

**zraver** · 16 Feb 07,, 16:02

OoE,

Hogwash. There is no plan that anyone that could come up with that the PLA will manage to defeat the 400,000 strong ROCA.

Not quite true. While the PLA/PLAN/PLAAF does not yet have the streangth to mount an invasion it is building it. Of particular intrest are PRC experiments in WiGE craft which offer the best route to avoid US/ROC submarines and fighters. These craft also have an amazing turn aroudn time and cruise speeds in the hundreds of knots. There is pratically no size limit to them based on old Soviet WiGE used in the Caspian Sea.

These craft could ge tthe troops and equipment ashore intially. The real issue over the next 20-30 years will be the PLAN ASW capability, becuase the troops wont last lon with out heavies bringing in supplies. This will also require air superemacy and the PLAAF abilitys to create a modern intergrated stealth defeating 5th generation airforce will be critical as well.

The RoCA is a paper tiger with mostly 70's and 80's technology. Things like M-60A3 TTS and Cobra gunships. It also lacks true long range artillery or effective shore based anti-shipping defenses. The RoCAF will also likey be eclipsed within just a few years as Russian sales and idig Chinese designs surpass the F-16 in capability.

Taiwan's trump cards are its navy and the US. The USN has the ability to sink the PLAN transports and C4SRI vessels at will. Sea Wolf and Los Angelses are the two weapon systems that really hold China back. China can't counter them by force (Threatrening Japan) or technology (Chinese ASW and submarine assets).

I am still trying to figure out and puzzel my way through the Chinese fixation on battling carriers. I am begining to feel that it may just be the fan boys who are fixated on sinking one of them. But at the same time I don't see the attnetion to Chinese ASW capabilites by the PLAN.

**Officer of Engineers** · 16 Feb 07,, 17:33

One of the problems with PLA watching is being burned with your own predictions. I've learned not to assign any capability to the PLA until they slapped a regt badge or a number on a hull.

The Chinese are of two thoughts as far as sinking a carrier is concerned. It's an all or nothing kind of thing. It would either force the US to back off or it will p!ss them off and knock the Chinese out once and for all.