Most Decisive US Civil War Battle - Page 8

Albany Rifles · 11-07-2007, 16:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Comin' up on 30 years ago now.

When I was a kid growing up in Tennessee, my dad and I would spend about a month reading and studying different battles, then we'd leave early Saturday morning for the weekend and go to the battlefield, get a room close-by, and spend the remainder of Saturday with a guidebook or our favorite history of the battle. We'd stomp all around the battlefield (or whatever remained of it), then at sundown go back to the room, read the books some more, then take the park rangers' walking tour on Sunday.

It was AWESOME, and my dad is the one that instilled in me the love of history, particularly the Civil War.

It's been MANY years now since I've walked Vicksburg and Shiloh and Murfreesboro and Brice's Crossroads and on and on and on...

On our first visit to Shiloh, we found the unit marker for the 154th Tennessee Volunteer Infantry Regiment...in whose ranks my ancestor, George Washington Bluesman

fought his one and only engagement. Read about him here. I literally changed in that moment, on that spot, and my family's past became real to me. I have never seen my father so moved before, or at any other time until his death. I can still remember the whole thing.

There's a riderless bronze horse where Johnston was hit by the fateful stray bullet, and we were going all around Prentiss' position at the Hornet's Nest and Bloody Pond just about sundown...at about the same time of day the general was mortally wounded. Again, an unforgettable moment, and when we went back to the hotel, we were both a bit skeevy. It was an intense experience. It was only our second time to visit a battlefield, and I think it was our best trip EVER.

ANYhoo, I've been to Shiloh about six times or so, Murfreesboro/Stones River four times, Chatanooga and Chickamauga four times each, Vicksburg twice, and a whole bunch of other places a time or two each: Brice's Crossroads, Cumberland Gap, Peachtree Creek, Kennesaw Mountain, etc.

Oh, and lastly: no, I don't think the ONSET of the seige was a foregone conclusion AT ALL, in fact, I've been arguing that proposition all along: the events could've gone any which way after Shiloh, not necessarily leading to the fall of Vicksburg after a seige.

But once Pemberton made the worst decision on either side during the campaign, and fell back into Vicksburg and shut the door...Vicksburg was almost certainly doomed. Pemberton had just locked up the only relief force that could've saved the city. Even though a relief effort was attempted later, it was always a no-go: the city would fall, because Grant willed it so, and had the instrument to compel it, even if it were done by slow seige instead of sudden storm. THAT is the part I think was inevitable: once Pemberton could no longer manuever against Grant, game over.

Thanks for sharing all of that.

I had similiar experiences with Antietam and Fredericksburg with my dad. Got to the Western theater starting about 1986 but really kicked it into gear over the last decade.

JAD_333 · 11-07-2007, 17:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

Do you realize that Lincoln won the election because of the soldiers' vote?
It was not that much of a foregone conlusion.

Yes, I do. There, also, sentiment was for winning, not settling, wouldn't you say? Since only men voted at the time and so many men were in uniform, a good portion of the electorate had a more accurate fix on how the war was going than the stay-at-home folks. Grant wanted Lincoln to win and made sure the troops were able to vote.

JAD_333 · 11-07-2007, 17:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

Thanks for sharing all of that.

I had similiar experiences with Antietam and Fredericksburg with my dad. Got to the Western theater starting about 1986 but really kicked it into gear over the last decade.

I live right in the thick of battlefields. Winchester, Kernstown 7 miles away. Cedar Creek 5 miles, not to mention a dozen or so lesser sites like Opeqon creek. Many are built over, sadly. Manassas which is 45 miles east, is pretty well set up. Gettyburg and Harpers Ferry are not far away either. Lots of folks comb the farms and woods around here with metal detectors and you can buy their findings at local flea markets. Bought a Union miniball in pretty good shape for a buck last spring. When I drive down Valley Pike from old Newtown to Middletown where the Cedar Creek battle spilled over, I try to see what the soldiers saw. Signal Knob hangs over us all the time (when it's not hazed over.) Hard to believe so many thousands of soldiers died right here.

Bluesman · 11-08-2007, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

I live right in the thick of battlefields. Winchester, Kernstown 7 miles away. Cedar Creek 5 miles, not to mention a dozen or so lesser sites like Opeqon creek. Many are built over, sadly. Manassas which is 45 miles east, is pretty well set up. Gettyburg and Harpers Ferry are not far away either. Lots of folks comb the farms and woods around here with metal detectors and you can buy their findings at local flea markets. Bought a Union miniball in pretty good shape for a buck last spring. When I drive down Valley Pike from old Newtown to Middletown where the Cedar Creek battle spilled over, I try to see what the soldiers saw. Signal Knob hangs over us all the time (when it's not hazed over.) Hard to believe so many thousands of soldiers died right here.

I love nothing as much as going to the old battlefields, and I think it's awful when they're allowed to be lost forever. I understand it, but I hate it just the same.

The worst one was the loss of Brandy Station a few years ago. The Forces of Good almost succeeded in saving it, but the site of the largest cavalry action in the Americas was bulldozed for a bunch of nondescript condos. I swear, if they were giving them away, I wouldn't want one, and wouldn't live in one if it were a choice between that and living in my car.

My son and I re-enacted the Batle of Cedar Creek on the actual battlefield, which is a rarity; they're usually held nearby. But this one has a special quality, and the Park Service allows it, and it was GREAT.

If you want to be moved by history, head up the road to New Market, and read of the heart-breaking decision that poor General Breckinridge was compelled to make when the only unit he had available to save his army was a battalion of cadets - some as young as 14 - and he gave the order to put 'em in the line with tears in his eyes. They did their duty, and more, and to this day, Virginia Military Institute marks the anniversary of the valor of the youngest of the men that laid down their lives there. That battlefield is there and waiting to be seen and understood by a visitor that wants to know about that extremely emotional story.

My Civil War artifacts story: my friend up in Minnesota is a re-enactor with the 1st Minnesota, and they muster once a month. On one meeting, one guy brought in a cigar box full of authentic uniform buttons, both Confederate and Federal. He said he bought 'em at a flea market from a guy that obviously had no idea what he had: the whole box for $5.

Mr. Sharp Buyer asked Mr. Ignorant Seller where he got 'em. And the answer broke his heart: 'Found a bunch of old clothes in some trunks in the attic of a house being torn down. Cut the buttons off and burned the old clothes.'

Yep, that's right: this ignorant yutz burned authentic uniforms that had been carefully stored for 130+ years. Both sides.

JAD_333 · 11-08-2007, 16:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesman

I love nothing as much as going to the old battlefields, and I think it's awful when they're allowed to be lost forever. I understand it, but I hate it just the same.

The worst one was the loss of Brandy Station a few years ago. The Forces of Good almost succeeded in saving it, but the site of the largest cavalry action in the Americas was bulldozed for a bunch of nondescript condos. I swear, if they were giving them away, I wouldn't want one, and wouldn't live in one if it were a choice between that and living in my car.

(

I know land developers; it's full speed ahead or go bust. We've had 2 sites saved in the last 10-15 yrs--a big hunk of Manassas that a big developer started on but was bought out on an emergency basis by Congress and a piece of Kernstown that private folks rescued from a local developer, a jerk who really did it to force a buyout. There are still quite a few smaller, signifcant pieces of ground around here that, so far, haven't been threatened because they are either in the woods or on farms. I don't think they can save it all. Hell the whole area was a battlefield. How many Winchesters were there - 11-17?

I've been to New Market many times and have seen the historical marker where the cadets made their stand.

There was a reenactment at Cedar Creek maybe a month ago and they have reenactors meet at Kernstown every year to show off their stuff, a lot of it original. The musket drill is awesome.

Too bad about the clothes going up in smoke. Around here the guy would have been run out of town.

svs · 12-19-2007, 23:45 PM

Can I sneak in here with a minority opinion? I believe the war was basically won/lost in the west and the battle for the Mississippi was the key to Northern victory.

With that in mind I would say Farragut's bloodless capture of New Orleans in spring 1862 was probably the key to Southern defeat. Along with the capture of Forts Henry and Donelson, the ends of the Mississippi were in Northern hands and the economy and the ability of the south to arm its troops were severely impaired. Vicksburg etc. just filled in the gaps.

Johnny W · 05-11-2008, 20:19 PM

I picked Gettysburg, primarily because it destroyed a good part of Lee's Army. In fact, if you look at the two big eastern battles in 1863 (chancellorsville and Gettysburg), Lee suffered around 35-40 thousand casualties. Thats a tremendous loss for an Army that was outnumbered to begin with.

But I don't think there was any single battle that was the key. I think the key was Lincoln making Grant commander of all Union military forces. One he was commander of the Army of the Potomac and could finally make it fight and wear Lee down. Two, the actions of the Armies of the North became relatively coordinated whereas the Confederacy was still somewhat disjointed and under the command of the militarily inept Jefferson Davis. Grant was willing to fight and also put Commanders in place in the other areas that would do the same. From that point on, it was just a matter of time.

Speaking of key battles, one of the most overlooked was the Battle at Fort Fisher near Wilmington NC. Fort Fisher kept the port of Wilmington open, and it was Lee's single remaining source of supply from outside. Its fall was basically the final nail in the Coffin.

View Poll Results: What battle was the most decisive in the outcome of the American Civil War?
Fredericksburg	1	2.78%
Antietam	6	16.67%
Vicksburg	4	11.11%
Gettysburg	20	55.56%
Atlanta	0	0%
Franklin	4	11.11%
Shiloh	1	2.78%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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12-19-2007, 23:45 PM	#111 (permalink)
svs Patron Join Date: 11-23-07 Posts: 194	Can I sneak in here with a minority opinion? I believe the war was basically won/lost in the west and the battle for the Mississippi was the key to Northern victory. With that in mind I would say Farragut's bloodless capture of New Orleans in spring 1862 was probably the key to Southern defeat. Along with the capture of Forts Henry and Donelson, the ends of the Mississippi were in Northern hands and the economy and the ability of the south to arm its troops were severely impaired. Vicksburg etc. just filled in the gaps.

05-11-2008, 20:19 PM	#112 (permalink)
Johnny W Patron Join Date: 04-30-08 Location: North Carolina Posts: 263 Country:	I picked Gettysburg, primarily because it destroyed a good part of Lee's Army. In fact, if you look at the two big eastern battles in 1863 (chancellorsville and Gettysburg), Lee suffered around 35-40 thousand casualties. Thats a tremendous loss for an Army that was outnumbered to begin with. But I don't think there was any single battle that was the key. I think the key was Lincoln making Grant commander of all Union military forces. One he was commander of the Army of the Potomac and could finally make it fight and wear Lee down. Two, the actions of the Armies of the North became relatively coordinated whereas the Confederacy was still somewhat disjointed and under the command of the militarily inept Jefferson Davis. Grant was willing to fight and also put Commanders in place in the other areas that would do the same. From that point on, it was just a matter of time. Speaking of key battles, one of the most overlooked was the Battle at Fort Fisher near Wilmington NC. Fort Fisher kept the port of Wilmington open, and it was Lee's single remaining source of supply from outside. Its fall was basically the final nail in the Coffin.

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