Expat Canuck

Note: If you're going to go on a gay bashing rant I don't want to hear it.

I've gotten into this debate with gay and straight friends about certain gay rights movements. These are my arguements and opinions.

I say I don't think they should be allowed to adopt as whether one likes it or not a normal family life is important as a child. Just think about the abuse you get as a kid for not owning the right shoes. It's not parental ability I question just why a person can be so selfish to get their own way they don't give two shits about the consequence in regards to the childs well being.

Before I get a what's normal rebuttle I'll answer that. Normal is what everyone else does. If being a homosexual family was normal the human race would go extinct rather quickly.

I also don't really agree with them being able to marry either. One of the arguements is for the tax breaks. As I don't really agree with the gay family issue I don't see why two grown ups should benifit from something that was geared for a family. Two men could never concieve a child so it's not a tax break but a financial advantage. Same goes for two women. On that note if you can concieve on your own there's nothing anyone can do about it so they get away with it. They still can't marry eiteh though I'll not budge on that one as it's not fair on the male couples. One law for all or don't have it at all.

I do agree with laws protecting homosexuals from abuse and descrimination. Just because you're different does not make you any less of a person. Besides most of my gay friends through the best parties. Steriotype I know but as my friend said we don't have a family for the most part, can't get knocked up so you can grow up and have kids i'll still be clubbing.

Ray

Gay gay Gay gay re Sahiban.
Pyar men sauda nahin.

It is a poular song in India.

An interpretation by the irreverent is:

Go Gay, Boss.
There is no quibbling in love!

Don't worry, be happy.
Don't be happy, be gay.

Gay = joyous and lively; merry; happy; lighthearted

My server was down the whole day and so I am browned off.

THL

Okay Kids, Now, Here Comes The Liberal In Me... .

The abuse kids get for not having the right shoes, hair cut, etc., usually does not have as much bearing on what kind of person they are going to grow up to become as how they are raised. Having or not having the latest in trends is not going to cause a kid to become unhealthy or perish. I am all for kids being raised in a happy, healthy, loving household. Much better than the alternative; abuse and neglect. If that happy, healthy, loving household has two moms or two dads...whatever, that is not selfish, that is commendable. I don't think that wanting to raise a child, wanting to love a child, is wrong just because you don't live how the majority of the world lives. If you are capable of truly caring for and unconditionally loving a child - then you are better than most people.

As for being normal as compared to everyone else as you stated above. 39% of US households own dogs. Does that mean the other 61% is not normal? 80.4% of US households are white, does that mean the other 19.6% are not normal? Christians make up 76.5% of US households - Are the rest not normal? BTW, I do not currently own a dog, I am only half white, and I am not Christian...Man am I bizarre.

So let's say there is this gay couple. They buy a home together, buy cars together, live together, they are a couple. But unmarried. Let's also say that something happens to one of them - he is killed in a car accident. That mans family can come in and take the half of everything that was his leaving the other man with only "his" half. Now let's say that you are married, have a house, cars, bank accounts, life insurance, etc. You are killed in a car accident. Your wifes family cannot come in and take her half, leaving you with only your half. How's that fair?

That's refreshing since everyone should be legally protected from abuse and discrimination.

Funny, cause I got the impression that you thought that since a couple was the same sex, they should have less rights and not be able to do things that other normal couples were able to do...


I...Give...Up


All my information came from here:
http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affe...tatistics.html
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762156.html
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

__________________
"To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are."-Sholem Asch

"I always turn to the sports page first, which records people's accomplishments. The front page has nothing but man's failures."-Earl Warren

"I didn't intend for this to take on a political tone. I'm just here for the drugs."-Nancy Reagan, when asked a political question at a "Just Say No" rally

"He no play-a da game, he no make-a da rules."-Earl Butz, on the Pope's attitude toward birth control

BenRoethig

For Marriage the only reason I see against it are religious reasons. While my faith determines my choices, it should not determine my government's Laws. Every citizen has the right to equality under the law. What harm to society would be caused by letting two people, that happen to be of the same sex, who have fulfilled all the obligations of marriage get the rights of marriage? That said, a government only has the right to grant civil marriage. Just as religion should stay out of government, government should stay out of religious affairs.

Adoption I have some issues with. I concede that a same sex couple could parent as well as a straight couple. However, that child needs more than just parenting, they need a normal healthy social life. The gay lifestyle of the parents would be thrust upon that child whether they wanted it or not. Other parents are going to be apprehensive about letting their children play with that child and when they get to adolescence they'll be treated as if they are gay themselves. You can regulate a person's rights, but they cannot regulate how a person perceives or interacts with another. If they do, they've greatly overstepped their bounds. I don't think any parent would want to subject their child to that. They need some resemblance to a nuclear (yes PCers, I said nuclear not homeonormative. You've gone way too far.) family. Rosie O'Donnell can get past this, but she has more money than we'll ever see combined. Besides, I think she cares more about how they can further the political cause then those kids.

__________________
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

Expat Canuck

If this doesn't turn out sorry I'm experimenting with quotes.


Spoken like someone who’s never taken a daily beating for being the poor kid at school. I’d say that getting the **** beat out of me every day certainly did have a bearing on my mental health and the person I am today. I don’t trust people well, am unsympathetic to others pain or hurt feelings and taught myself how to make explosives as a teenager. I’d say that schoolyard bullies had a lot of bearing on my adult life.
I hated school was one of those quite kids who sat in the back and did nothing. I sat in the back because as long as you’re back isn’t turned you at least have the option of trying to dodge the random object thrown your way. A result of this was very bad grades and a hatred of school. I still sit with my back to the wall in a restaurant out of habit, to be honest I do that because I feel uncomfortable otherwise. I also remember being so depressed I wanted to die. I mean I really wanted it all to be over. My parents loved me and I was lucky compared to a lot of kids but my parents didn’t have the money to put me in sports or keep me in the “latest trends”.
Inflicting this on a child due to your own selfishness is wrong. A gay couple should know this better than anyone especially if one is a male who came out while still in high school.
My saving grace, which enabled me to be a well-adjusted adult, was the Royal Canadian Air Cadets. I became confident, had a lot of friends, and because I left my house to do sports I dropped off all my weight I put on from being a frightened hermit. I also got to fire a Lee-Enfield a whole lot on my range team and fly Cessna’s.
This has no bearing. Seeing how I’m Canadian, live in London England, and didn’t put this up in U.S. Politics I was generalizing more on a global view. I should have mentioned this previously so it’s not your fault. By normal I suppose natural conception between mother and father or at least a mother father type family. Even single parents should at least try and have both parents involved. Sadly in too many homes this is not the case.



Isn’t that what a will is for? If you have a will and say I want to leave it all to so and so if I get run over by a cement mixer that’s how it should work. If this is not the case maybe that law should be changed. Also didn’t leave a will, I guess that’s too bad now isn’t it. While not fair who’s fault is that?



I’d never have it any other way.


Just because I don’t agree with some aspects of someone else’s life doesn’t mean I want them discriminated against. Kind of like the fact that I am vehemently opposed to Sikhs getting away with being able to carry a knife at school or not wear a helmet on a motorcycle because a turban is protection enough doesn’t mean I dislike them. Like I said one law for all or not at all.
Oh yes and because of raving in my late teens early twenties I’ve made a lot of gay friends. It’s not that I dislike them quite the opposite in fact it’s just I don’t agree with some of the hardliner gay rights activists who ***** and moan all the time.




Then I win.

THL

What kind of woman would I be if I let you get away with saying that?

Hey, I am not saying you are wrong, and you are right, I did not get "bullied" too much in school. One time when I was in third grade a boy hit me with a metal lunchbox and my step father taught me the knee lift. Does that count?

As for kids being bullied because of their parents being different - thats going to happen no matter what. If you have a hispanic family in a mostly white town (I did grow up with NOBODY being able to pronounce my realtively simple to pronounce hispanic last name) that is going to make them different. Does it mean they should not live there? Absolutely not. It means we need to start teaching our kids tolerance and that not everyone is the same. Things won't get fixed with this generation, but maybe by the next.

Here is an example I was telling TopHat about the other day actually: I had my daughter in line to see the Easter Bunny. In front of us were 3 kids and their 2 dads. My 3 year old daughter heard the kids calling both dads "dad" and asked me where their mom was. I told her, quietly, that not everyone has a mom. 3 year olds don't let things go that easily so she kept it up. "Why don't they have a mommy?" I hushed her and asked her to let it go. I did not want to embarrass the men in front of me or myself and did not feel the Easter Bunny line was the place to discuss this. After a minute or two of me trying to change the subject, one of the men turned, motioned to my daughter, and said to me, "May I have a go at it?" Anyone could have explained this to her at that moment if it would have gotten her to stop asking so I told him to go ahead. He got down to her level and spent about 5 minutes asking her questions and telling her, in a very sweet way, how not all families have a dad and a mom. When he was done, she told him ok and that was the end of it. She has told almost everyone she has met since that she met a family with two dads - she's thrilled because they were different - not horrified by it.

This is the kind of tolerance we need to be teaching our kids. From the day they are born they need to know that everyone is different and that different is not wrong.

I am fortunate enough to work for an incredible company that prides itself on its diversity. Gay couples can even be on eachothers health insurance at my company. I think this is great - it should be like this. There is no harm being done.

Expat Canuck

Cute story, no sarcasm really is. That’s the great thing about young children, they don’t care and everything is wonderful. I like kids.
I just don’t see most attitudes changing any time soon. While racism is on the downslide it’s still around as I’ve been finding out firsthand. People in my neighbourhood don’t like white people and they let me know about it. Anyway, look how long this is taking to eliminate. I don’t see homophobes going anywhere anytime soon. To put what you want ahead of what will be good for a child is completely wrong and selfish.

Your company looks like it’s really progressive or it got in **** once.

I knew that saying I win would get you going.

Final note: Harm is being done, what I'm saying is that a couple in this situation just doesn't care who it's being done to just so long as they get their way at the expense of a child they couldn't conceive on their own. Basicaly, the couple who gets a child through adoption could potentially ruin the life of a child that isn't even biologically theirs.

Asim Aquil

Yes to marriage, not to adoption.

Why? I don't think its right for parents to pass down their gay values to their children. And yes they will, I'm pretty certain hetrosexual parents do pass some degree of hetrosexuality as well. Its only natural for any animal to pass functions that will ensure continuation of the species.

Why gay marriages then? Well its a concious choice made at adulthood, and if you're gay when you're old enough to marry, you're pretty much not going to contribute to the continuation of the species anyway. Might as well we let you live in peace and happy with the one you love.

Expat Canuck

I suppose you do have a point with that one.

Asim Aquil

Isn't marriage in many ways a religious affair? It just got adopted as culture.

So really any government should not have any objections to any two people marrying. Any two consenting adults at least. Since sex will be involved, other than age, I don't see any other needed prohibitions to marriage.

THL

I don't see it going away for good, ever. There will always be one that cannot accept what others are.


I don't think that one's desire to raise a child is selfish at all. There are way too many children in this world that are unwanted. They need people to care for them and to love them. Anyone who can fit that bill - is a saint and should be treated as such...regardless of who they sleep next to at night.


On the contrary, we have too many children in this country that NEED to be adopted. They NEED to be shown that people are still generally good and decent. They NEED to go to loving homes with people that care about them, regardless of who those people are sleeping with. I shudder at the thought of all the kids in foster care being pushed around trying to find a family that is willing to keep them and take care of them. It sickens me to think of the kids that have two parents and are going to bed hungry or cold at night while their parents are out at the bar or just plain ignoring them. I cannot tell you how many cases I hear of where young kids, 2 and 3 years old, are found left at home alone while their parents go to the store or are out doing who knows what.

Are you telling me that these kids are better off with the irresponsible parents they got stuck with as opposed to being in a home where they may have gay parents but will eat everyday and have a warm bed to sleep in and will be taken care of? Where their (gay) parents will take the time to read to them and play games with them instead of leaving them alone and potentially abusing them?

Asim Aquil

I think while Gays would be adopting out of good intentions, I don't think they qualify as the right kind of parents due to their sexuality.

There might be a need to get the children adopted, but where they go, they should be raised with the same upbringing a child is raised by hetrosexual parents. How many of us have wanted to be like our parents? Being Gay is right and Hetro is wrong is how it might be viewed by their children. Afterall their kind, loving, appreciating and giving parents chose homosexuality, it should be right, right?

Anon

It is my firm belief that:

A) Gays only seek the 'right' to marry for the financial gain that institution offers, it has nothing to do with 'love', or any such matter.

B) The gay lifestyle is inherently immoral, and as such, no children should ever be raised- or even exposed- to such an environment.

Obviously then, i voted no/no.

Leader

Could someone explain why this issue is important?

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Anon

Not so far...