Isn’t the Welfare State Great

Leader · 06-08-2005, 16:14 PM

'Bribery' Row over Ipods Offer to Jobless Teenagers

By Lesley Richardson, PA

Unemployed teenagers are being offered £170 iPods to take part in a course aimed at helping them to find work, it emerged today.

Critics have said that handing out the personal digital music players to teenagers embarking on The Step Up For Summer course at Bournemouth and Poole College in Dorset amounts to bribery.

In addition, students aged between 16 to 18 who embark on the 14-week course, which is funded by taxpayers, get paid £50 a week for one day a week of work, £100 cash when they finish the course, a further £100 payment if they enrol on a further full-time course at the college, free lunch vouchers and free travel if they live more than three miles away.

Nick Seaton, chairman of the Campaign for Real Education, said the course, which is funded by the Government’s Learning and Schools Council, was sending teenagers the wrong message.

“The people who are organising the course must feel the youngsters don’t really want to go, otherwise they wouldn’t feel it was necessary to offer them iPods.

“To me they are offering them a bribe,” he said.

“It seems like a waste of taxpayers’ money and an abuse of taxpayers’ money.”

Mr Seaton added: “If they are offered courses they should value them enough to attend of their own free will – it’s for their benefit.

“It’s giving the wrong message about the value of education. It tells teenagers they don’t have to do anything unless they are getting a sweetener.

“Taxpayers shouldn’t have to provide extra incentives for them to attend.”

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4661221

Confed999 · 06-08-2005, 19:33 PM

Oh my...

Leader · 06-08-2005, 21:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confed999

Oh my...

Sick isn't it?

Abbott · 06-08-2005, 21:54 PM

Cool, I wish I could have gotten deals like that when I was that age. It may even start some of those kids on their way to a decent education.

Leader · 06-08-2005, 21:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbott

Cool, I wish I could have gotten deals like that when I was that age. It may even start some of those kids on their way to a decent education.

Then start a charity and pay for it yourself.

Abbott · 06-08-2005, 22:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leader

Then start a charity and pay for it yourself.

That is just the point. The kids given the opportunity to find jobs and get more education do not have the money to start charities. Who knows maybe in the future a few of them will thanks to getting an idea of what an education may do for them thru programs such as this one.

Leader · 06-08-2005, 22:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbott

That is just the point. The kids given the opportunity to find jobs and get more education do not have the money to start charities. Who knows maybe in the future a few of them will thanks to getting an idea of what an education may do for them thru programs such as this one.

I meant you personally. In other words, if you want this, pay for it, but don't make me pay for it because I see it as money wasted on losers who already pissed away their chance at a free ride.

Confed999 · 06-08-2005, 22:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbott

That is just the point. The kids given the opportunity to find jobs and get more education do not have the money to start charities.

Are you an uneducated teen? No? Then I don't know what that has to do with you starting a charity to give away mp3 players instead of using tax money that could actually be spent on education. IMHO, people signing up to get free ipods aren't there for the right reasons, they're there literally stealing from society.

Leader · 06-08-2005, 22:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confed999

IMHO, people signing up to get free ipods aren't there for the right reasons, they're there literally stealing from society.

The real joke is that it's not just a $300 ipod. It’s $100 a week for showing up, and $200 for managing to show up for 14 weeks. By my count these people are being handed almost two grand!

Confed999 · 06-08-2005, 22:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leader

The real joke is that it's not just a $300 ipod. It’s $100 a week for showing up, and $200 for managing to show up for 14 weeks. By my count these people are being handed almost two grand!

Yeah, the whole thing is insane, but it's the friggin' ipod that makes it revolting.

Abbott · 06-08-2005, 22:54 PM

Quote:

I meant you personally. In other words, if you want this, pay for it, but don't make me pay for it because I see it as money wasted on losers who already pissed away their chance at a free ride.

Hmm, maybe I am confused? Your profile says Boston, USA. You fly the US flag. This program is in Great Britton. I do not understand how you are paying for it.

If it was in the United States then my tax dollars would be paying for it, so then you have gotten what you desire. As you probably know tax dollars go for many things many of us do not agree with. I see this program as not doing any harm and maybe doing some good as compared to many programs I feel have a chance at being less productive.

Leader · 06-08-2005, 22:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confed999

Yeah, the whole thing is insane, but it's the friggin' ipod that makes it revolting.

I think the whole think is revolting. I wouldn't support it if they didn't get paid at all. These people had their chance. They dropped out of high school. After that I'm done paying for them.

Leader · 06-08-2005, 23:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbott

Hmm, maybe I am confused? Your profile says Boston, USA. You fly the US flag.

USPRA = United Socialist People's Republic of America.

Quote:

This program is in Great Britton. I do not understand how you are paying for it.

You are using an illogical argument. I'm making an argument against the policy. I don't have to be in GB to do that.

Quote:

If it was in the United States then my tax dollars would be paying for it, so then you have gotten what you desire. As you probably know tax dollars go for many things many of us do not agree with. I see this program as not doing any harm

No harm? These people are stealing my money. The government should kill this program and all those like it. Then cut taxes that exact amount. These people don't deserve my money. They are lazy, indigent losers. They had their chance to get a free education, and they pissed it away. Now they can pay for it themselves.

Quote:

and maybe doing some good as compared to many programs I feel have a chance at being less productive.

You're justifying this waste of money by saying that it's not the most useless, aburd waste of money?

**Parihaka** · 06-09-2005, 00:30 AM

Quote:

Controversial Wananga history clouds 'success story'
10 May 2005
By MICHELLE QUIRKE

From humble beginnings as a marae redecoration project 20 years ago, Te Wananga o Aotearoa has grown to become New Zealand's biggest tertiary institution, claiming $239 million in taxpayer funding last year.

Enrolments soared from 861 fulltime students in 1989 to 34,282 in 2003 – proof, supporters say, that the wananga has succeeded in getting Maori and "second-chance" learners into tertiary education where others have failed.
Critics tell a different story. Allegations of nepotism and financial mismanagement surfaced in Parliament in February. ACT MP Ken Shirley claimed a grooming contract for the wananga's fleet of 350 cars was given untendered to a company owned by the partner of a senior manager.

He also alleged one of the wananga's programmes, Mahi Ora, was bought from chief executive Rongo Wetere's daughter, Susan Cullen, for $7 million, and a Cuban-designed literacy and numeracy course was sold to the wananga by Dr Wetere's fiancee, Marcia Krawll, for "an extraordinary seven-figure sum".

The wananga was also accused of spending $60,000 flying two American energy efficiency consultants to New Zealand to oversee work at its Porirua campus.
Dr Wetere rejected accusations of nepotism as "ridiculous" and said the claim about Ms Krawll was untrue.

In 1997 four wananga students attempted to rob a bank after their tutor asked them to "examine the feelings of an offender preparing and committing a crime" as part of an employment course. The students were expelled but not charged, and the tutor was suspended. The Qualifications Authority found the incident was a "minor slip-up".

Five years later the wananga was again under scrutiny for offering pre-paid cellphones to all students on the free Mahi Ora life and work skills course. Tertiary Education Minister Steve Maharey asked the wananga to change its policy. Initially defiant, the wananga later compromised, saying students would be asked if they wanted a cellphone and the course enrolment age would be increased from 18 to 20 to curb the risk of abuse.

Qualification Authority audits have raised concerns about administration, contracting, management and quality issues, though they have also noted improvements and praised the institution for the way it meets community needs, student resources, efforts to train staff and its focus on research.

By 2003 alarm bells were ringing over its enrolment boom, partly blamed for a tertiary education budget blowout, which forced the Government to cap funding.
(not just on this institution but tertiary education in NZ as a whole!)

Opposition MPs say the Government must share the blame for the wananga's financial woes, having handed out millions of tertiary dollars rewarding bums on seats in low-quality courses and failing to put the brakes on till it was too late.
.

Quote:

PM livid over wananga
9/05/2005 18:05:02

The Prime Minister is livid the Government has been forced to throw a $20 million lifeline to the troubled tertiary institution Te Wananga O Aotearoa.

The wananga is on the brink of insolvency and has been given the emergency loan to pay this month's staff wages and creditors.

Helen Clark is defending the bail-out, despite hating every minute of it.

She says she feels great resentment (poor Helen) about the issue, but says decisions about the wananga's future have to be taken in a considered way, rather than pulling the rug from under people who are part-way through their tertiary education year.

Helen Clark says revelations that the tertiary institute's financial woes are worsening did not come as a surprise to her - she says it is just another chapter in a very sorry saga.

Quote:

Wananga millions went on pub and hotel
19.02.05
By EUGENE BINGHAM

The taxpayer-funded Te Wananga O Aotearoa owns a pub and a hotel in the Waikato.

The tertiary institution bought the Glenview International Hotel in Hamilton for $5 million and it also owns the Te Rapa Tavern. When it bought the properties, the Te Awamutu-based wananga - under fire in Parliament this week for alleged rorts and accusations of conflict of interest - said it intended to convert both into facilities for its own use.

But the tavern and hotel remain open for public use.

The wananga also admitted yesterday that it owned a unit at Whangaparaoa's Gulf Harbour for visiting tutors and contractors, even though its closest campus is in South Auckland - more than an hour's drive away.

Add to this a purpose built driving range to teach ‘twilight golf’ and free laptops for students on some courses. The luxury Gulf Harbour facility was further justified as ‘a useful place to launch waka (canoes) built on our courses’.

Abbott · 06-09-2005, 17:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leader

USPRA = United Socialist People's Republic of America.

You are using an illogical argument. I'm making an argument against the policy. I don't have to be in GB to do that.

No harm? These people are stealing my money. The government should kill this program and all those like it. Then cut taxes that exact amount. These people don't deserve my money. They are lazy, indigent losers. They had their chance to get a free education, and they pissed it away. Now they can pay for it themselves.

You're justifying this waste of money by saying that it's not the most useless, aburd waste of money?

You said (and I quote) "Don't make me pay for it”. If you are a US citizen then you are not paying for it. Your statement was illogical. But I think we get each other now.

No one is stealing your money. You are upset at the fact that your taxes (if they were your taxes) are not being spent the way you think they should be. After reading your post as to how you have classified the people that may be included in the program all as "lazy and losers" without any stated knowledge of them or knowing any of them. I have great confidence in the fact that the people administering the program and our taxes are more on the ball concerning the matter then you are. I personally trust them more then someone whom appears very over zealous and intolerant with such issues and anyone who does not share your belief system.

I do not think your belief system is correct, so in fact I do not see the program as a waste of money. Some of the programs participants may be motivated as to what you or I think may be the wrong reason. However I do believe the program may help educate some people that are worthy of the money being spent. If just some of the participants are sent on their way with a better idea of what an education can do for them and others and some enroll in college then it may be a successful program. I certainly would not classify everyone who participated in the program in such a general and negative way, to do so is bigotry, which convincingly undermines and at the very least clouds yours or anyone’s argument concerning the issue.

06-08-2005, 16:14 PM	#1 (permalink)
Leader Ubi dubium ibi libertas *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-04-03 Location: Boston, MA, USPRA Posts: 5,124	Isn’t the Welfare State Great 'Bribery' Row over Ipods Offer to Jobless Teenagers By Lesley Richardson, PA Unemployed teenagers are being offered £170 iPods to take part in a course aimed at helping them to find work, it emerged today. Critics have said that handing out the personal digital music players to teenagers embarking on The Step Up For Summer course at Bournemouth and Poole College in Dorset amounts to bribery. In addition, students aged between 16 to 18 who embark on the 14-week course, which is funded by taxpayers, get paid £50 a week for one day a week of work, £100 cash when they finish the course, a further £100 payment if they enrol on a further full-time course at the college, free lunch vouchers and free travel if they live more than three miles away. Nick Seaton, chairman of the Campaign for Real Education, said the course, which is funded by the Government’s Learning and Schools Council, was sending teenagers the wrong message. “The people who are organising the course must feel the youngsters don’t really want to go, otherwise they wouldn’t feel it was necessary to offer them iPods. “To me they are offering them a bribe,” he said. “It seems like a waste of taxpayers’ money and an abuse of taxpayers’ money.” Mr Seaton added: “If they are offered courses they should value them enough to attend of their own free will – it’s for their benefit. “It’s giving the wrong message about the value of education. It tells teenagers they don’t have to do anything unless they are getting a sweetener. “Taxpayers shouldn’t have to provide extra incentives for them to attend.” http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4661221 __________________ "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have." "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" NEVER FORGET

06-08-2005, 19:33 PM	#2 (permalink)
Confed999 Staff Emeritus Join Date: 09-10-03 Location: Florida Posts: 10,681 Country:	Oh my... __________________ No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

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06-08-2005, 21:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
Abbott Regular Join Date: 04-25-05 Location: Pacific Northwest, USA Posts: 45	Cool, I wish I could have gotten deals like that when I was that age. It may even start some of those kids on their way to a decent education.

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