1947

this is in regards to the mass conversions in 2006 or 07 when the lower castes were trying to convert their way out of eternal condemnation and poverty
the conversion sparked fears among the hindu hardliners who couldnt come up with a competent response becuase opposing the conversion meant the lower caste's would suffer more encouraging it would only worsen their fears

Adux

What do you call Missionaries who came during Tsunami, and said we will give you food and water if you convert? During the 60's it was a common occurance, especially in the 1963 Famine.

I dont agree with the anti-conversion laws, but they do have a point. But I dont agree with the course they have taken as it violates Human rights. Its not as if you cant convert, just that government makes sure that you havent been coerced into one, like above.

Adux

Regarding Cheerleaders, India is a democratic country, as long as Malliaka Sherawath can jiggle her ass in Movies, and have posters all around the country, I dont see anything wrong in this. Culture my ass, Make Indian men subjugating women and raping anyone and everything.

mthambi

I see where you are coming from. But with all due respect I think this is a strawman argument.

• How likely is that case compared to the abuse of the law.
• If you trust the average Indian to elect his prime minister, then I would trust him to understand that he is taken advantage of. He can accept the food/water, convert and convert back to his original religion a couple of days later.
• It is the state's responsibility to provide food/water during a tsunami and not rely on the missionaries. If it can't do that, it has no right to tell Indians to starve to death to preserve their religion.
• From the state's point of view which is worse:
  • - Allowing a citizen to change his religion for food/water.
  • - Allowing a citizen to renounce his nationality and get a new citizenship (including the responsibility to bear arms for a foreign power) just to get a better job and make more money.
  To be clear I think both should be legal.

-Manu

Ray

In Kolkata no one warned the cheerleaders.

One stupid CPM Minister aired his view, while the CM said he has no time to devote to such issues!!

Interestingly, the same Minister had organised a show ''Hope 86'', with Bollywood belly dancing stars!!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Adux

Hardly.[list]
No, We consider that highly unethical.

I hope you know that there are people here with personal experience on the issue. There are people who do that, and there people who take the religion seriously and there are people who further take money and use the influence of the church.

No they dont, But other people who does give the same has no right to blackmail the people they are providing care. If you want to provide food and water, provide that; no questions asked.
[*] From the state's point of view which is worse:[list]
The whole idea is that man can stoop so low to say will give you food and water if you change religion is unimaginable. It is direct insult to the teachings of Jesus or whoever they are preaching for.


Very different than food and water, Renoucing Nationality is a choice, while food and water is NOT.

Mallu Christain.

mthambi

People who take religion seriously are free not to take food/water. It will leave them no worse than if the law had existed.

I agree that what the missionaries are doing are highly immoral. Should it be illegal? In any case I think the point is moot. If the state is not competent enough to provide food/water how do you expect it to enforce the law. Instead of passing impractical laws, it should focus on improving public services.

It is immoral. But do you think it would be better for somebody to do nothing at all or give food in return for religious conversion. Doing nothing is clearly not illegal.

I hope you are not insinuating that it has anything to do with my arguments. In any case you are only half right -- Mallu Ex-Christain athiest/agnostic.

- Manu

Adux

No, How very unkind, Taking food and water to people who has suffered and telling them NO you cannot have it.



The law is impractical, and I agree to that. But the point you are contesting is highly immoral somehow you are helping the government. The Indian state is not USA, we have our limitations that doesnt mean very tom dick and harry can come and take advantage of that. We are not the Chinese, you know.
If you plan to do CHARITY, do that. And nothing else. Or else find a different country.


Why dont Missionaries help people, 'human beings' and whoever wants to convert, do convert. You think jesus would have said to dying man, I will give you water if you convert.


It clearly has, it is just under the carpet. As you can see I am a mallu myself, and my family was forced to covert but did not because of their belief in their religion, this was in the 1962-63 famine. I have seen quite a few who hold similar views as you.

mthambi

Let me be clear. I think what the missionaries are doing are immoral and would never personally support it (or give money to a charity which does such things). The point I was arguing what simply whether the state should have a role in this.

Some of the people who are starving might have a different opinion. Personally if I were starving I would gladly convert (it is just a ceremony for me, I don't believe in fairy tales.) I definitely want to have that option available for me (rather than starving). Any it is my country too!

I am sorry for what happened to your family. But clearly they were not forced to convert, because they CHOSE not to.

I think the right response for people who care about their religion is to treat all the followers equally (ex, truly abolish the caste system), raise funds to provide charity to their followers etc. so that people would have no reason to leave. By forcing people to stay in your religion, you are acting like the old soviet union which wouldn't allow its citizens to travel abroad.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on this.

-Manu

gamercube

And who decides what level of public affection is appropriate? Why should public orgies be disallowed? Is the level of public affection you think appropriate for India a result of your travels abroad? If so, then why is it automatically assumed that because such intimacy is the norm in the west, it should be so in India too?

And if the above sequence of events does not result from aping the west, then what does?

So if we refuse to ape the west in terms of overt public sexuality, we are xenophobic? What if we decide to impose our morals on the west? Do you think westerners would regard vegetarianism as a virtue, just as most Indians do due to their belief in non-violence? Ask one of you Australian (white) friends if he thinks the word "xenophobic" was suitable for him if he refused to change over from a non-vegetarian to vegetarian.

If that's true, then no one should have any objection about our politicians discussing the matter-if their long term goal is poverty alleviation anyway, as you suggest, then spending a few days talking about anti-obscenity laws won't harm anyone. As you see, it has generated media attention, and there's a parallel media-public debate on the subject which will obviously be taken into account by any politician worth his salt if he wants to to have any chance of winning the next elections.

__________________
Hasta la Victoria siempre!

kuku

Shake it girl, now only if they could loose the cricket and give more time to these girls dancing,
as mama ji (mothers brother) used to say, "nazaree dikhanee wali ko pareshani nahi hai to deknee walo ko pareshani kyo hai."

The obscenity law is yet another call form these idiots to tell us that we can not decide what is good for us, dont want to watch these girls, well then stay at home and stop crying about it.

__________________
cheers

gamercube

Sir,

At least this one time, you can feel proud of the CPI led government of WB.

gamercube

There's a reason anti-obscenity laws exist. And I'm talking not just about India, but even the rest of the world. Anti-obscenity laws exist even in North America-they are not as far reaching as India's, but they do exist. Have you ever wondered why? Please do. And then apply that understanding to Indian society, and you will get your answer.

mthambi

My thoughts exactly! But I wish people would grow up and I can have my entertainment without visits from the police

kuku

I do not give a rats ass to what is happening in Amerika north or south.

If i want to go to a dance show and see naked girls dancing, i will.
and if the same society which has extra marital affairs, sadism, sexual exploitation of children, and a thousand other crimes going on in its own social structure wants me to stop doing so, i will not give a rats ass to what that society says.

A bunch of sexually oppressed geek boys only good for beating up on their wives and tell the world about morals and what not.