Big K

you can read all the Holy Books

in Islam theres no cleric class, mullahs and hodjas have no place in Islam at all..

yes and infact this is the first truth in Islam

i am not arguing that someone must believe in God. this is your choice to believe or not.

as a Muslim i am not the one who can judge you. judging someone for his beliefs is playing God which is the biggest sin.

infact theres many verses in Quran says that we can not force(in any manner) people. only thing that we can is to tell you about Quran...

like i've stated above, it is your choice that we must recpect.

but never forget, this "submission" is not a slavery. contrary in Quran you can see that Humanity is free to choose his own way...like you...

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I'm not willing to remain silent even there will be no effect when i say.

Tronic

Ahmet, that is why Turkey is what it is; a secular progressive modern state. Sadly, elsewhere majority of Muslims don't share your interpretation of Islam.

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Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

Parihaka

I can assure you I used the term filth to describe the film. I won't use the term documentary or doco to describe it as making those is what I do for a living and it most certainly is nothing like a documentary.

What it is of course is a small collection of sayings from the Koran, coupled with video and still footage of terrorist atrocities from around the world. The obvious intent is to conflate the Koran with terrorism, and to associate all Muslims with terrorism.
No attempt is made to differentiate the >99.9999% of Muslims who have never and will never commit an act of terrorism from the .<00001% who have or will: no attempt is made to do anything except to associate all Islam with butchery and murder. Until such time as Mr Wilders can demonstrate to me that other than by means of this hate filled ******** that all Muslims are terrorists, I will agree with his right to propagate his filth, and call it what it is: FILTH.
He is a propagandist who would have made Goebels proud if he had worked for him, and I have no doubt Wilders would have if he'd had the chance.



As a comparison, re-watch Wilders film, then read the review of the film the poster below advertises.





Papers on 'The Eternal Jew' by Stig Hornshoj-Moller


Same old same old.

7thsfsniper

Obviously, but if one is stupid enough to equate it with all muslims then your intelligence becomes an altogether different question.

[/quote]
No attempt is made to differentiate the >99.9999% of Muslims who have never and will never commit an act of terrorism from the .<00001% who have or will: no attempt is made to do anything except to associate all Islam with butchery and murder. [/quote]

Interesting statistic. Wherever did you find it? I would think that be a bit higher. The other factor here is sharia law which may not be considered terrorism as such but bears a close from the perspective of women.

BIG K

Big K, there will always be racism and bigotry. If you are a moderate and practice your faith in peace then you should always strive to so. I think those of us who understand the issue are niether racists or bigots. No one likes to see killing in general, thats why prisons around the world are packed because no one wants to clean house. Perhaps we are a bit too tolerant as a species. The footage in the video does not lie, the interpretations will always be open for interpretation as any other religious document. Only the weak mind buys into propaganda. The video shows no moderate or peaceful muslims because they are not the ones committing these acts. You wouldn't make a video about cars if you were trying to sell boats. Lets fix what we can. Peaceful muslims should be leading the charge against radicalism and I'll guarantee if you do that I'll be right beside you helping.

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"Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men."- General George S. Patton, Jr

Big K

my friend this is a whole other subject to debate...so much to say about it as a Turkish Muslim but this is going off-topic i think...

Adux

BIG K,

THere is an obivious difference between turkish way of islam and wahhabi (largest).

snc128

tronic, I think those people you had mentioned are provacative people.
I have never been able to understand why they have never applied the change they desire first for theirselves. they are not good examples.

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action speaks louder than words

snc128

very good post. but one should not underestimate the Taqiyyah and the wars for power and money.

TTL

Aren't there laws against hate speech in EU or US? This movie seems like a perfect example of hate speech. It targets a specific group (muslims) and tries to portray them as terrorists and murderers.

Parihaka

Quotes from the Koran. Adhan. Muslims protesting. Acts of terrorism. All bundled together without even a narative, simply guilt by association.
The only stupidity is in attempting to claim it is anything else than hate propaganda.

While numbers are difficult to attain
Lets multiply that by ten years, which gives us 111,110 terrorist attacks. Obviously some years,especially in Iraq, may have had more attacks, but most would have had less. So what percentage is that of the roughly 1.5 billion (estimates vary). You do the math.

We happen to have a Muslim woman living with us at the moment and she agrees with you. She despises Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iraq 'because the men there are such idiots'. Hardly something which rules all Islam.

7thsfsniper

Correct! andyour point is?

brokensickle

The film is not made up filth by Mr. Wilder, its content is the embodiment of the people perpetrating it. It is consistent with what is being said in Mosques the world over that does not get much press because it is considered "hate speech".

Hitler created reality to dupe his minions. These guys are actually doing this.

We are doomed when freedom of speech and truth are bandied about as hate speech.





Ivan

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"Evil opposes freedom and uses those who pervert it as pawns to destroy it."

Parihaka

You want to have a discussion about how mainstream Islam needs to do more to counter terrorism, I'm all for it.
Want to talk about the problems of assimilation or lack of it for some Muslims in Europe, go right ahead.
Or how Islam needs a reformation and the establishment of a titular head along the lines of Christendom?
How the house of Saud runs indoctrination camps in Pakistan to encourage the ethos of anti-westernism and an ideal recruiting place for terrorists?
How the Taliban has become inseperable from autonomy for Balochistan, Waziristan and the NWFP, and now basically represents the pre-Durand line tribal affiliations?
In all these discussions I'll read avidly and contribute what I can, but if you want me to sit back and listen to nothing more than "Muslims terrorists, Koran promotes terrorism, Muslims terrorists, Koran promotes terrorism, Muslims terrorists, Koran promotes terrorism," with nothing more to add, I'm going to call such filth, filth.
The girl who boards with us isn't a terrorist, but this 'film' says she is because she's Muslim and follows the dictates of her religion. My wife's English-raised ethnic Pakistan friend is by this films reckoning a terrorist because she reads the Koran and is a Muslim. One of my best editors is a terrorist because he's a Muslim.
That is what this film says, Koran = terrorism = Muslim = terrorist.
It doesn't say anything else, it doesn't discuss any of the issues I've outlined above, it is nothing more than a puerile and simplistic call to hate, as puerile and as simplistic and as hateful as the worst propaganda of OBL and his irhabi chums.

Grim Reaper

Geert Wilders made an awesome film, I support it and I also see the dangerous threat.

chankya

This is quite interesting to me. Do we also count all those who incite violence? You know, the characters who say "Death to infidels" without actually doing any killing. How about people who contribute money on the streets of karachi to "kill the infidel soldiers"? How about the corrupt official/govt. employee under orders to let certain jihadis continue their training camps in Pakistan? All those mullahs inciting the masses, all those internet geeks calling for the death of any character remotely saying/doing anything which might sound insulting to Islam? They aren't doing any killing but does incitement to murder count?

I'm not saying that Islam or its adherents are all bad or somehow they're in some kind of evil plan. Obviously on this board alone, people like BigK disprove that theory. I'm just saying that terrorism of any kind must have some element of support in a population to be able to survive for so long.

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"Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides