Mobbme

Every religion is modernized. The ones that fail to keep up with modernization are the ones that fail. If you read the Quran and fail to recognize change in society, and take it as it was written centuries ago, then theres a problem; AQ and ALL muslim terrorists go by the Quran as it WAS. Christianity, Hinduism, and Bhudism all have gone through modern changes and are upto date, why can't hardcore Islam followers? I watched the documentary, it didn't say ALL muslims are terrorists. But go around the world and pin point every terrorist organization, you will find that almost ALL are muslim. That is why everyone points a finger. Besides Turkey muslims, find me muslims that are sincerely FOR the war in Afghanistan, and sincerely on the side of the US (american muslim citizens). There shouldn't be a political agenda behind it, it should be genuine.

Parihaka

Well certainly Wilders counted them all. He counted every single muslim without exception, from the smallest baby to the oldest matriarch and everyone in between, because after all, Koran = terrorism = muslim = terrorist.
No exceptions, no grey areas, no 'supporters but not terrorists', no 'sympathy but not support' and no 'I don't support terrorism', just Muslim = Terrorist.

Parihaka

So tell me, you and all those others who think this is a good movie, what does this movie say? What quotes can you give me, and what time did they happen in the film? Anything will do, all the points regarding Islam that people have raised in relation to this discussion, where in this film, at what time on the timeline does it discuss these issues?

Just one each will do.

Parihaka

Oh and by the way I've changed the title of the thread by removing the word BANNED, because of course it isn't.

7thsfsniper

PARI, thanks for kickin' the banned. I asked permission to put this here, you granted. It goes to show we don't need the first ammendment to exchange thoughts. Only manners.

I want to clear my point for you. the muslim woman living with you, as also any of the muslims I work with, has no desire to behead either of us and was not depicted in any of the footage shown. The footage is extremists! This is not a fantasy or a fabrication! Your friend=my friend. No one depicted on the video is a friend to you or I, can I assume that? I think yes, because we are peace loving, tolerant people who are fine until something bad happens. Then , whoever did it, is my enemy and deserves my wrath. Save the muslim=terrorist thing for the morons, I think most here at the WAB know the difference. Extremist(insert religion here)=terrorist! in my opinion.

__________________
"Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men."- General George S. Patton, Jr

7thsfsniper

Thank You for expanding on Paris' quote. Very good point! you don't have to strap on a bomb to be an extremist! Good job!

captain

So I did watch the film again and nowhere in that film did Wilders equate all muslims with terrorism.
I have not read anything by Wilders or heard any interview by Wilders where he claims that all muslims are terrorists.
The film did however show clips of terror perpetrated by muslims.
Your claim that he attempted to conflate the koran with terrorism is quite true and is exatly what the intent of the film is.

Your claim that <.00001% of muslims would be prepared to perform an act of terrorism is interesting and I would like to see a link to a credible source that would confirm that.

I also read the link you provided "the eternal Jew".

To manage to make a comparison between the Nazi film and Fitna is drawing a long bow indeed.
Wilder's film used footage of real events to make his point whereas the nazi's used imagery including depicting Jews as plauge rats jumping at the camera.
Wilders issue is with the Koran and its violent verses.
The film made by the Nazi's had issue with the existence the Jewish people.

Parihaka

Like I said here, do the math. So what percentage of Muslims do you believe commit terrorism? Hmm?

And they both had exactly the same intent, to demonise a community with simplistic use of imagery. Nowhere did Widdler "equate all muslims with terrorism"?
********, and you know it.

Koran.
Terrorism.
Koran
Terrorism
Koran
Terrorism
Koran
Terrorism.

In case it has escaped you, the Koran is the foundation of Islam.

Now how about answering some of these questions?

Parihaka

I agree with everything you say here. I don't however believe Wilders does

Parihaka

By the way: if I seem dismissive in this thread; or more hostile than my usual self it's because we have argued around the culpability of Muslims in general for terrorism before.
This thread for instance. It predates me becoming a moderator, and is worth the time to read in full.

snc128

I want to share my thoughts anymore and reflections of the movie fitna. I have been following the thread since the initial post.

I wanted to make contribution but what I intend to say frightens me.Why? I am afraid of a violent opposition as a result of possible misunderstandings that this movie may have caused. to let you know, normal muslims (normal people of the muslim world) never wants to behead you as a result of Iraqi war. number of peaceful muslims outnumbers the extremists.
to tell the truth, we have been managed by our fears. and those,who know our fears are really expert in using our fears.

__________________
action speaks louder than words

snc128

I will tell you what,
what if another extremist from so called muslims would produce a movie against "Fıtna" that shıows Christians' massacres committed against Muslims.
unfortunately, it would be worse than Chernobyl calamity.

captain

Ok, I'll do the maths.

Previously you claimed less than .00001% of muslims would ever be inclined to acts of terrorism.
0.00001% of 1,500,000,000 is 15,000 but leave that figure for the moment.

To use the number of terrorist attacks Vs the total population of muslims is mathematical dishonesty, so much so that a junior high school kid would spot it straight away.
Those two sets are exclusive.

eg. At the moment there is a terrorism trial going on in Melbourne where the accused planned to blow up a sporting stadium with the intent of causing a minimum of 1,000 deaths.
If the sheikh and his band of jihadists had succeeded then your total of terrorist attacks would have been increased by one even though there are currently 12 of them facing the charge for the same terrorism plot.

Back to the 15,000 figure.
Last year a poll was conducted in Britaian amoungst the muslim population.
What that poll found was that 7%, IIRC, of Britain's 1.8 million muslims supported OBL and would be prepared to wage violent jihad.
Lets be fair and remove from that population, 60% who are those less than say 15 years of age and those over 55 years of age.
40% of 1.8 million is 720,000 and lets also remove half of that sample because they are female and would never do such things so we are left with 360,000 and 7% of that is 25,200.

It appears your 15,000 figure is looking a bit underdone because Britain has all of the potential terrorists plus some.
Good news for the rest of the world including Germany, Spain, France, The Netherlands, Austria, Belgium, Canada, the US and of course Australia because Brittain is hanging on to more than their share.

A set of statistics that has a little more credability is available from the following link;

Pew Global Attitudes Project: Introduction and Summary: The Great Divide: How Westerners and Muslims View Each Other

captain

He made no such claim whatsoever.

I have never seen anything from him that makes a claim like that but I would be prepared to read, watch or listen to anything where that claim is clearly and unambiguously made.

captain

The entire point, punchline, conclusion of the film was as usual in the final moments when a page was torn from a book and on the screen Wilders wrote;
"For it is not up to me, but to Muslims themselves to tear out the hateful verses from the Quran"

Wilders is just one more of a great many who have expressed that desire.