More AK-47's showing up in US

sappersgt · 03-27-2008, 01:25 AM

Quote:

By MATT SEDENSKY, Associated Press Writer
Wed Mar 26, 9:37 PM ET

KENNER, La. - The cake had been served and the children were jumping up and down in a big, inflatable castle when the birthday party turned to bedlam.

Clarence McGraw's jaw dropped as he saw the visitors coming, guns drawn. The screaming began.

Children ran everywhere in the courtyard of the low-income apartment complex; adults fell to the ground. Bullets flew. The killers wounded three youngsters, but for reasons police can't explain, it was 19-year-old McGraw they were after.

As McGraw lay in the center of the green square, the gunmen stood over him and fired again. He was shot 15 to 20 times in all.

The Sept. 15 killing was remarkable in that it took place in the most innocent of settings — the fifth birthday of twin boys. But it was unremarkable in that one of the guns brandished was an AK-47-type rifle — a powerful, rapid-fire weapon that has long been used in Third World conflicts but is increasingly being used in American street fights.

Figures from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, obtained by The Associated Press through public records requests, show a marked increase in the number of AK-type weapons traced and entered into the agency's computer database because they had been seized or connected to a crime.

The number of such tracings rose even while the federal assault weapons ban was in effect and has continued to climb since its expiration.

Since 1993, the year before the ban took affect, ATF has recorded a more than sevenfold increase in 7.62x39mm guns — which includes the original Russian-made AK-47 and a variety of copycats from around the world. The number of AK-type guns rose from 1,140 in 1993 to 8,547 last year.

Since 2005, the first full year after the ban's expiration, ATF has recorded an 11 percent increase in such tracings.

ATF says the increases in the first half of the 1990s are partly the result of wider usage of its weapons database by local law enforcement agencies. But after that point, the numbers reflect a real increase in tracings of AK-type guns, the agency acknowledged.

The numbers corroborate what police chiefs around the country have been saying: AKs and other so-called assault weapons are terrorizing their communities and endangering their officers.

The numbers are reflected in some of the most horrifying violence of the past year, including a deadly shooting rampage at a department store in Omaha, Neb.

They're reflected in the growing number of police forces equipping their officers with higher-powered guns to match the bad guys' firepower.

And they're reflected in a single 72-hour period in September that started with the shooting of four Miami-area officers and ended here, in a drab apartment complex just outside New Orleans.

___

On Thursday, Sept. 13, Jose Somohano, a 37-year-old officer with the Miami-Dade Police, was cut down during a traffic stop in suburban Miami by a man with an AK-type weapon. Three other officers — armed, like Somohano, with just handguns — were wounded, one of them suffering a bullet wound the size of a grapefruit in her leg.

By midnight, the gunman, Shawn LaBeet, had been shot to death by police after a huge manhunt.

Police have refused to say how many times Somohano was hit or how many shell casings were found.

The officer's wife, Elizabeth Somohano, had gone off to her job at an insurance company earlier that day, and just before noon, Jose's sister reached her at the office. "Have you heard?" she asked. Something was going on in the area Jose patrolled.

Elizabeth called his cell. She text-messaged him, over and over. She called her kids to see if they had heard from him. She checked the Internet to find out what was happening, and learned that officers had been shot and a gunman was on the loose.

A colleague of Jose's — one of his closest friends — called Elizabeth and told her to stay put. He showed up at her office, and when their eyes met, he broke into tears.

"He didn't make it," he told her. She screamed.

Later, she took some comfort in knowing that her husband had eaten lunch that day, which meant he must have seen the hot-pink note she had slipped into his lunch bag along with his chicken salad-on-pita sandwich: "I love you, macho man."

Days before the ambush, Miami Police Chief John Timoney agreed to let patrol officers carry assault rifles to help counter the use of such weapons by criminals. John Rivera, president of the Dade County Police Benevolent Association, pleaded for the same for officers in the Miami-Dade department, which protects more than 1.4 million people around the city.

"It's almost like we have water pistols," he said.

For years, only SWAT teams and the like carried AR-15s or similarly powerful weapons. But police forces nationwide have increased their firepower to match the criminals' arsenal — not only in urban areas such as Miami and Los Angeles, but in Waterloo, Iowa, Stillwater, Okla., Danbury, Conn., and Merced, Calif.

"We're in an arms race," said Police Chief Scott Knight of Chaska, Minn., chairman of the firearms committee of the International Association of Chiefs of Police.

___

On Friday, Sept. 14, along the Tigris River outside Baghdad, an alleged Shiite extremist linked to roadside bombings was taken into custody with his AK-47s and grenades. In Afghanistan, in villages south of Kabul, troops arrested three suspected Taliban militants and confiscated their weapons, including their AKs. And in Sydney, Australia, a former soldier pleaded guilty to gunning down a photographer with an AK in a contract killing.

With AK-47-type guns used in wars and insurrections all over the world, some 250,000 people are said to be killed by such weapons each year, and more than 75 million are believed to be in existence. In Iraq alone, congressional investigators estimate 110,000 AKs bought by the U.S. for security forces there cannot be accounted for.

The AK was designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov and went into production in 1947, with its name standing for Avtomat Kalashnikova and the year.

"Once the Wall fell, these guns were everywhere," said Carlos Baixauli, an agent with ATF.

Kalashnikov, who is now 88 and still lives in Russia, has said he is proud of his invention but saddened it's been used by terrorists. He said he wishes he had invented something like a lawnmower.

Bullets fired by AK-47s travel at a higher velocity than those from many other weapons, and can do grievous damage to the body. Often they have enough energy to pass clear through.

Knockoffs of the AK can be bought from legitimate gun dealers for as little as $300, and are also available on the street. Original Russian-made models are more expensive. Normal ammo clips hold 30 rounds, but higher-capacity ones are also available.

Most of the AKs on American streets are semiautomatic, meaning they fire as fast as the gunman can squeeze the trigger. Fully automatic ones, common on the battlefield, require just one pull of the trigger to release a burst of fire.

A 2004 study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence concluded the U.S. ban on AKs and other guns was successful, saying in the five years before its passage, assault weapons made up 4.82 percent of ATF crime gun traces, compared with 1.61 percent between 1995 and 2003.

Many politicians, police chiefs and gun control advocates point to the expiration of the assault weapons ban as a reason for the spread of the guns. But many others argue the law was so riddled with loopholes that it had little effect.

The National Rifle Association says the focus must be getting criminals off the streets, not more legislation.

"The basic reason why gun control laws fail is that they require the cooperation of a very unlikely source, and that is criminals," said NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam. "Each time you pass a gun control law, the only people that are going to be affected by that law, the only people that are going to follow that law are law-abiding Americans."
___

On Saturday, Sept. 15, at the Glenwood Apartments in Kenner, Trinioucka Martin rose early and cooked all morning for her twin boys' birthday party — meatballs, fried chicken, baked macaroni, sandwiches. She had already ordered a cake with the youngsters' picture on it, hired a DJ, and rented the inflatable castle and house.

McGraw woke up at his aunt's house across a highway from the apartment complex and had a hankering for something sweet. He wanted some cake.

At the party, after the crowd had dispersed and the officers arrived, McGraw lay dead on the ground near a sewer grate, his torso and lower body riddled with bullet wounds. Balloons still floated from ribbon; the "Happy Birthday" banner still hung.

No arrests have been made. McGraw was buried in a $450 grave against a chain-link fence in a crumbling New Orleans cemetery. The mound of dirt above his casket is littered with rocks and bone fragments and teeth. There was no money for a marker.

Kinda of a long article, I highlighted the relevant NRA quote about criminals and guns.

T_igger_cs_30 · 03-27-2008, 01:31 AM

I guess the only solution is to be all armed ..................and hope for the best.............. a sad commentary

gamercube · 03-27-2008, 04:11 AM

Quote:

The basic reason why gun control laws fail is that they require the cooperation of a very unlikely source, and that is criminals," said NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam. "Each time you pass a gun control law, the only people that are going to be affected by that law, the only people that are going to follow that law are law-abiding Americans."

How come gun control laws have worked in most of the world then? In no other country on the world (with or without gun laws) do as many civilians die every year from gun shootings. Where do these people get their "theories" from? Mars? Even more surprising is that the seem to be able to dupe everyone with them!

kuku · 03-27-2008, 04:28 AM

We have Gun control laws in India, does not make any difference, the AK-47s are quite popular in Bihar, lots of media coverage on this.

If you want some local firearms its not that big a problem even in Delhi, however you might as well give that to the guy you are about to shoot at and tell him to shoot at you, the chances of the Thing exploding on you are i think higher than any harm to the chap you are planning to shoot.

As far as criminals are concerned the firearms will never be a problem, it does not matter if you have very strict gun control laws or not.

However, gun control is very important even if it is for law abiding citizens. These are not some toys, and accidents happen, normal people go crazy, etc. etc.

And the job should be making things tougher for them.

gamercube · 03-27-2008, 04:49 AM

Quote:

We have Gun control laws in India, does not make any difference, the AK-47s are quite popular in Bihar, lots of media coverage on this.

Bihar is one ****ed up state. What's true of Bihar is definitely not true of the rest of the country. I'm from Maharashtra, and I've never heard of gun violence there on the scale that happens in the US. Secondly, can you imagine what would happen in India if gun laws were relaxed? The riots that take place ever so often would then be staged with AK-47s, and the police would find it impossible to control them with their old .303s. Law and order would be impossible to establish!

**Parihaka** · 03-27-2008, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamercube

How come gun control laws have worked in most of the world then? In no other country on the world (with or without gun laws) do as many civilians die every year from gun shootings. Where do these people get their "theories" from? Mars? Even more surprising is that the seem to be able to dupe everyone with them!

% homicides with firearms (most recent) by country
#1 Thailand: 79.5805
#2 South Africa: 59.2028
#3 Colombia: 45.2092
#4 Slovakia: 45
#5 Guatemala: 42.0706
#6 Zimbabwe: 39.6026
#7 United States: 39.5604

Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country
#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people

Non-firearm homicide rate > per 100,000 pop. (most recent) by country
#1 Colombia: 62.74
#2 South Africa: 51.3901
#3 Guatemala: 25.4737
#4 Mexico: 14.1112
#5 Paraguay: 12.0451
#6 Estonia: 10.4456
#7 Belarus: 10.13
#8 Latvia: 10.0337
#9 Lithuania: 10.0135
#10 Ukraine: 8.9253
#11 Thailand: 8.4679
#12 Moldova: 8.127
#13 Barbados: 7.4906
#14 Zimbabwe: 7.2381
#15 Poland: 5.6072
#16 United States: 5.5

gamercube · 03-27-2008, 05:01 AM

NationMaster - Murders with firearms (most recent) by country

#1 South Africa: 31,918
#2 Colombia: 21,898
#3 Thailand: 20,032
#4 United States: 8,259
#5 Mexico: 3,589

--------------------

NationMaster - Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by country

#1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
#2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
#3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
#4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
#5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
#6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
#7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people

-----------------------------------

NationMaster - NationMaster Survey

#1 South Africa: 74.5748
#2 Colombia: 51.7683
#3 Thailand: 33.0016
#4 Guatemala: 18.5
#5 Paraguay: 7.3508
#6 Zimbabwe: 4.746
#7 Mexico: 3.6622
#8 United States: 3.6

************************************************** *

I'm sorry, I should have said that they're in the top ten countries in the world in terms of gun crime, but top among the developed countries.

kuku · 03-27-2008, 05:01 AM

The AKs were seized from some "bhai log".

If you have the money, its not that difficult to procure these weapons.
I think Bihar being a F-ed up state should give you some indication of this.

Travel on a train from Bihar to any place in Maharashtra, you will see what i am taking about, no one checks anyone, and the metal detectors do not work.

The riots are a entire different thing, if you need to pump in massive amounts of arms that will set a lot of bells ringing, and some pocket with 5-10 automatic assault rifles will not achieve much. Its not like the Indian police is all .303.

As for Gun control, its absolutely necessary, the job is as i said to make things more difficult.

gunnut · 03-27-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamercube

Bihar is one ****ed up state. What's true of Bihar is definitely not true of the rest of the country. I'm from Maharashtra, and I've never heard of gun violence there on the scale that happens in the US. Secondly, can you imagine what would happen in India if gun laws were relaxed? The riots that take place ever so often would then be staged with AK-47s, and the police would find it impossible to control them with their old .303s. Law and order would be impossible to establish!

So what you're trying to say is if India has the same type of lax gun laws as the US, the result will be far worse than what is happening now in the US?

Well, that says something about how well behaved Americans actually are, doesn't it?

bolo121 · 03-27-2008, 12:24 PM

Yes thats true, America has mostly whites blacks and hispanics only.
We have Tamilians, Kannadigas, Malayalis, Marathis, Punjabis, Biharis, and so on to name a few. Throw in a multitude of castes, hindu muslim tension and endemic inequality and poverty and its a miracle we hang together at all.
There are always riots and disputes among the various groups, throw in american type weapon supply with plentiful ammo and it would be a nightmare.

After seeing the gun threads on the board, it seems you guys outgun most indian police forces.

gunnut · 03-27-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo121

Yes thats true, America has mostly whites blacks and hispanics only.
We have Tamilians, Kannadigas, Malayalis, Marathis, Punjabis, Biharis, and so on to name a few. Throw in a multitude of castes, hindu muslim tension and endemic inequality and poverty and its a miracle we hang together at all.
There are always riots and disputes among the various groups, throw in american type weapon supply with plentiful ammo and it would be a nightmare.

We have more than just whites, blacks, and hispanics.

Among the hispanics, I would say the gangs don't get along with each other too well. Those gangs are based on nationality for some odd reason, like Guatemalans, Salvadoreans, Mexicans...etc.

Then we have the Asians. Vietnamese don't get along with Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans.

Blacks form their own street gangs to protect their turf. Maybe they further seperate themselves into the "more black' and the "less black" variety. I know some have actually done that in elections.

We don't have as many ethnic varieties as India. What we have are street gangs based largely on ethnic and/or geographic background.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo121

After seeing the gun threads on the board, it seems you guys outgun most indian police forces.

Heh...I think leib outguns most Indian police departments.

bolo121 · 03-27-2008, 12:40 PM

I know you have others but my point was that the main three groups are those.

Yes im aware of your street gangs even we indians have heard of LA ********ers.

Gangs are just criminal antisocial elements in your cities though, i would think that small cities and rural areas are more peaceful?

Stan187 · 03-27-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamercube

How come gun control laws have worked in most of the world then? In no other country on the world (with or without gun laws) do as many civilians die every year from gun shootings. Where do these people get their "theories" from? Mars? Even more surprising is that the seem to be able to dupe everyone with them!

Actually, most legitimate statistical research studies show quite conclusively that more guns in legal private ownership in a certain area make crime go down not up. These ideas are not from Mars, but from reality. The only dupe is you, thinking that your way is the only way. Gun control laws haven't worked in most of the world. In places with severe limitations on gun possession people kill each other knives.. and they're still just as dead.

Stan187 · 03-27-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo121

Gangs are just criminal antisocial elements in your cities though, i would think that small cities and rural areas are more peaceful?

They're actually quite social.. they shake down just about everyone they meet on the streets, especially people who are unarmed.

gunnut · 03-27-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo121

i would think that small cities and rural areas are more peaceful?

You are quite right. Smaller cities are always safer. Just because people know each other. The more people you have packed into an area, the less likely they'll know each other. People tend to keep to themselves and go about their business. It's just easier to harm people you don't know.

We rarely hear about gang problems in Smalltown, USA. Mostly we hear about them in big cities. And of course Smalltown USA just happens to be much better armed with lax gun laws.

03-27-2008, 01:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
T_igger_cs_30 *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-04-07 Location: Canada Posts: 1,943 Country:	*I guess the only solution is to be all armed ..................and hope for the best.............. a sad commentary* __________________ $<img src=http://C:\Documents and Settings\Wayne Smith\My Documents\002...My Pictures border=0 alt= />$ FEAR NAUGHT I don't work here ...I am an analyst!

03-27-2008, 04:28 AM	#4 (permalink)
kuku Contributor Join Date: 02-28-08 Location: delhi Posts: 571 Country:	We have Gun control laws in India, does not make any difference, the AK-47s are quite popular in Bihar, lots of media coverage on this. If you want some local firearms its not that big a problem even in Delhi, however you might as well give that to the guy you are about to shoot at and tell him to shoot at you, the chances of the Thing exploding on you are i think higher than any harm to the chap you are planning to shoot. As far as criminals are concerned the firearms will never be a problem, it does not matter if you have very strict gun control laws or not. However, gun control is very important even if it is for law abiding citizens. These are not some toys, and accidents happen, normal people go crazy, etc. etc. And the job should be making things tougher for them. __________________ cheers Last edited by kuku : 03-27-2008 at 04:31 AM.

03-27-2008, 12:40 PM	#12 (permalink)
bolo121 Contributor Join Date: 12-19-07 Location: india Posts: 703 Country:	I know you have others but my point was that the main three groups are those. Yes im aware of your street gangs even we indians have heard of LA *******ers. Gangs are just criminal antisocial elements in your cities though, i would think that small cities and rural areas are more peaceful? Last edited by bolo121 : 03-27-2008 at 12:43 PM.*

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03-27-2008, 05:01 AM	#7 (permalink)
gamercube Contributor Join Date: 11-20-06 Location: Barbados Posts: 696 Country:	NationMaster - Murders with firearms (most recent) by country #1 South Africa: 31,918 #2 Colombia: 21,898 #3 Thailand: 20,032 #4 United States: 8,259 #5 Mexico: 3,589 -------------------- NationMaster - Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by country #1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people #2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people #3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people #4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people #5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people #6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people #7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people #8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people ----------------------------------- NationMaster - NationMaster Survey #1 South Africa: 74.5748 #2 Colombia: 51.7683 #3 Thailand: 33.0016 #4 Guatemala: 18.5 #5 Paraguay: 7.3508 #6 Zimbabwe: 4.746 #7 Mexico: 3.6622 #8 United States: 3.6 ************************************************** * I'm sorry, I should have said that they're in the top ten countries in the world in terms of gun crime, but top among the developed countries.

03-27-2008, 05:01 AM	#8 (permalink)
kuku Contributor Join Date: 02-28-08 Location: delhi Posts: 571 Country:	The AKs were seized from some "bhai log". If you have the money, its not that difficult to procure these weapons. I think Bihar being a F-ed up state should give you some indication of this. Travel on a train from Bihar to any place in Maharashtra, you will see what i am taking about, no one checks anyone, and the metal detectors do not work. The riots are a entire different thing, if you need to pump in massive amounts of arms that will set a lot of bells ringing, and some pocket with 5-10 automatic assault rifles will not achieve much. Its not like the Indian police is all .303. As for Gun control, its absolutely necessary, the job is as i said to make things more difficult.

03-27-2008, 12:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
bolo121 Contributor Join Date: 12-19-07 Location: india Posts: 703 Country:	Yes thats true, America has mostly whites blacks and hispanics only. We have Tamilians, Kannadigas, Malayalis, Marathis, Punjabis, Biharis, and so on to name a few. Throw in a multitude of castes, hindu muslim tension and endemic inequality and poverty and its a miracle we hang together at all. There are always riots and disputes among the various groups, throw in american type weapon supply with plentiful ammo and it would be a nightmare. After seeing the gun threads on the board, it seems you guys outgun most indian police forces.

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