The Nerve of These Guys!...

brokensickle · 03-15-2008, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Muslims nations: Defame Islam, get sued? By RUKMINI CALLIMACHI, Associated Press Writer
Fri Mar 14, 6:26 PM ET

The Muslim world has created a battle plan to defend its religion from political cartoonists and bigots.

Concerned about what they see as a rise in the defamation of Islam, leaders of the world's Muslim nations are considering taking legal action against those that slight their religion or its sacred symbols. It was a key issue during a two-day summit that ended Friday in this western Africa capital.

The Muslim leaders are attempting to demand redress from nations like Denmark, which allowed the publication of cartoons portraying the Prophet Muhammad in 2006 and again last month, to the fury of the Muslim world.

Though the legal measures being considered have not been spelled out, the idea pits many Muslims against principles of freedom of speech enshrined in the constitutions of numerous Western governments.

"I don't think freedom of expression should mean freedom from blasphemy," said Senegal's President Abdoulaye Wade, the chairman of the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference. "There can be no freedom without limits."

Delegates were given a voluminous report by the OIC that recorded anti-Islamic speech and actions from around the world. The report concludes that Islam is under attack and that a defense must be mounted.

"Muslims are being targeted by a campaign of defamation, denigration, stereotyping, intolerance and discrimination," charged Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, the secretary general of the group.

The report urges the creation of a "legal instrument" to crack down on defamation of Islam. Some delegates point to laws in Europe criminalizing the denial of the Holocaust and other anti-Semitic rhetoric. They also point to articles within various U.N. charters that condemn discrimination based on religion and argue that these should be ramped up.

"In our relation with the western world, we are going through a difficult time," Ihsanoglu told the summit's general assembly. "Islamophobia cannot be dealt with only through cultural activities but (through) a robust political engagement."

The International Humanist and Ethical Union in Geneva released a statement accusing the Islamic states of attempting to limit freedom of expression and of attempting to misuse the U.N.

Human Rights Watch said in a statement that objectionable depictions of the Prophet Muhammad do not "give them the right under international human rights law to insist that others abide by their views."

Hemayet Uddin, the lead author of the OIC report and head of cultural affairs for the group said legal action is needed because "this Islamophobia that we see in the world has gone far beyond a phobia. It is now at the level of hatred, of xenophobia, and we need to act."

A new charter drafted by the OIC commits the Muslim body "to protect and defend the true image of Islam" and "to combat the defamation of Islam."

To protect the faith, Muslim nations have created an "observatory" that meets regularly to monitor Islamophobia. It examines lectures and workshops taking place around the world and prints a monthly record of offensive content.

But some of the summit's delegates said a legal approach would be over the top.

"My general view would be that the confrontational approach is one my country would avoid," said Bangladeshi Foreign Minister Iftekhar Chowdhruy. Bangladesh is 90 percent Muslim.

While the Muslim world worries about the image of Islam in the West, the U.S. envoy to the OIC attended the summit to try to tackle the thorny question of America's image among Muslim states.

Sada Cumber calls his campaign the "soft power" of the U.S. — an effort to find common ground with Muslim nations by championing universal values the U.S. holds dear like religious tolerance and freedom of speech.

"America has a deep respect for the religion of Islam," Cumber told The Associated Press. "The freedom of faith that we exercise, that we enjoy in America, that is also a very important aspect of the American core values. Anyone who wants to practice any faith is never stopped or discouraged."

Also during the summit, Chad and Sudan signed a peace agreement to stop incursions of rebels across each other's borders, and the summit delegates committed themselves to addressing the spiraling violence between Israelis and Palestinians.

___

Associated Press Writer Heidi Vogt contributed to this report

These guys have a lot of nerve!

They (the Muslim's) seem to see it more fair to kill people for making cartoons, than people to make cartoons because they ( the Muslim's) kill people. Then because of the self-generated criticisms outcome of bad press they decide to start suing people for complaining about their murderous actions in the name of Islam.

I believe they simply just want to continue spreading Islam by the sword and other terrors while suing those that complain and see Islam for what it is.

Well isn't that convenient. We just shut up and let the carnage continue because now we feel the pressure of law suites from the would be conquerers.

They have the problem and we aren't allowed to complain! WHAT!!!

Ivan the Irascible

gunnut · 03-15-2008, 19:01 PM

Well, at least they are suing rather than chopping heads off.

Tarek Morgen · 03-15-2008, 19:15 PM

You must see it positive, it seems that they are at least adopting (parts of the ) american way of life.

troung · 03-15-2008, 19:29 PM

Quote:

I believe they simply just want to continue spreading Islam by the sword and other terrors while suing those that complain and see Islam for what it is.

The Arab invaders of the Middle East avoided forced conversion of the entire population for numerous reasons - the small size of their own forces (some historians put it at some 20-30 thousand), leaving well enough alone and of course the most important, money. Taxes mixed with the somewhat simpler one god issue (ever wonder why they say there is no god but god so much - its a slam at the trinity) got it spread in the Middle East after the conquest. And the Ummayads problem with converts got them overthrown. There was initially an issue over converting anyone. Indonesia and Malaysia picked it up off of trade. And heads were cut in India. And of course there are still Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians in the Middle East. Treatment of religious groups differed from dynasty to dynasty but if they all had some official policy to make them all Muslims by the sword then there would not have been a single non-Muslim there today. So the spread was mixed.

And how did Christianity spread? You will find plenty of headless corpses as well as people who thought Christ was the man.

lwarmonger · 03-15-2008, 19:56 PM

I find it amusing that the Muslims are taking pages out of the Scientology playing book.

Perhaps they are considering a new prophet?

glyn · 03-15-2008, 20:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troung

And how did Christianity spread? You will find plenty of headless corpses as well as people who thought Christ was the man.

Although the christians might want to downplay it, there is plenty of blood on their hands, especially in South America.

troung · 03-15-2008, 20:26 PM

Quote:

Although the christians might want to downplay it, there is plenty of blood on their hands, especially in South America.

Which was my point

toemag · 03-16-2008, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

Although the christians might want to downplay it, there is plenty of blood on their hands, especially in South America.

But that was a long time ago, we have come a long way from there and then now haven't we. Please don't stumble over my sarcasm.

"There can be no freedom without limits." That's what we have laws for isn't it

.

Roll on WW3.

Tony

brokensickle · 03-17-2008, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

Well, at least they are suing rather than chopping heads off.

These are the funnest folks to be around...Just a friggen laugh a minute.

I just want walk on their egg shells the rest of my life

DON'T...

Ivan

brokensickle · 03-17-2008, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troung

The Arab invaders of the Middle East avoided forced conversion of the entire population for numerous reasons - the small size of their own forces (some historians put it at some 20-30 thousand), leaving well enough alone and of course the most important, money. Taxes mixed with the somewhat simpler one god issue (ever wonder why they say there is no god but god so much - its a slam at the trinity) got it spread in the Middle East after the conquest. And the Ummayads problem with converts got them overthrown. There was initially an issue over converting anyone. Indonesia and Malaysia picked it up off of trade. And heads were cut in India. And of course there are still Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians in the Middle East. Treatment of religious groups differed from dynasty to dynasty but if they all had some official policy to make them all Muslims by the sword then there would not have been a single non-Muslim there today. So the spread was mixed.

And how did Christianity spread? You will find plenty of headless corpses as well as people who thought Christ was the man.

Many years ago it was the Christian, Then the Hindu, then the Communist
But what about today? The only thing you have is this lame answer?

How about those murdering commies? 10 million people in Russia? How many in China under the Maoderer?

Live in the freaking present Dude.

Ivan

Bigfella · 03-17-2008, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen

You must see it positive, it seems that they are at least adopting (parts of the ) american way of life.

Spot on Tarek, what better proof of the spread of American Values than to see Muslims suing poeple they don't like.

On a slightly more serious note, you open a door to this tripe with legislation that restricts free speech. Whether it is attempts to protect ethnic & religious minorities, or the even scarier attempts to legislate historical truth, there are potential downstream consequences.

I take a back seat to non one in my disgust at racism or holocaust denial. It is not, however, the role of government to regulate opinion, no matter how offensive.

(note: neither is it the role of government to encourage prejudice. When that happens calls for legislative protection are understandable).

Bigfella · 03-17-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troung

The Arab invaders of the Middle East avoided forced conversion of the entire population for numerous reasons - the small size of their own forces (some historians put it at some 20-30 thousand), leaving well enough alone and of course the most important, money. Taxes mixed with the somewhat simpler one god issue (ever wonder why they say there is no god but god so much - its a slam at the trinity) got it spread in the Middle East after the conquest. And the Ummayads problem with converts got them overthrown. There was initially an issue over converting anyone. Indonesia and Malaysia picked it up off of trade. And heads were cut in India. And of course there are still Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians in the Middle East. Treatment of religious groups differed from dynasty to dynasty but if they all had some official policy to make them all Muslims by the sword then there would not have been a single non-Muslim there today. So the spread was mixed.

And how did Christianity spread? You will find plenty of headless corpses as well as people who thought Christ was the man.

Great post troung. Ain't history awkward.

Just a small point - I'm pretty sure 'there is no God but God' had little to do with the Trinity, at least in the beginning. The major religious opposition to Islam when first formulated were the polytheistic religions of the Arabian peninsular. Initially Mohammed was also keen to be accepted as part of Judaism - another 'one god only' religion. I think these probably had a stronger impact on the 'there is no god but god' formulation.

When Islam began to expand it hit 2 major religions - Byzantine Christianity & a sort of renewed Zoroastrianism. The latter looked a great deal more polytheistic than the former - part of the reason (though only part) why Zoroastrianism was so comprehensively driven from the former Persian empire.

Byzantine Christians were a different matter. Eastern rite churches have never really accepted the Trinity & the veneration of Mary. There was, by all accounts, a great deal of resentment at the Latin Church for effectively forcing these ideas onto their eastern cousins. This also had an ethnic component of sorts. Byzantine Christians saw themselves as inheritors of the Greek philosophical traditions, and condisidered themselves the intellectual superiors of Latin Christians.

This meant that the first Christians encountered in large numbers by Islam were not particularly enthusuastic defenders of the Trinity. It also meant that in those Christian areas Islam first conquered there was a ready-made audience for the 'there is no god but god' message. This helped Islam gain a large base of believers with conversion that they could not have gained so easily by force. The 'there is no god but god' message may heve been emphasised to help play on Eastern Rite resentment at the Latin Church, but the message pre-dated contact with committed Trinitarian communities.

Bigfella · 03-17-2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brokensickle

Many years ago it was the Christian, Then the Hindu, then the Communist
But what about today? The only thing you have is this lame answer?

How about those murdering commies? 10 million people in Russia? How many in China under the Maoderer?

Live in the freaking present Dude.

Ivan

How present would you like Ivan? Here are some 'greatest hits' from the recent history of the Christian world. I look forward to the usual excuses.

Uganda 1987-Present (Lord's Resistance Army - tens of thousands dead, many more kidnapped, raped and/or horrifically mutliated, millions still refugees).

Bosnia 1992-98 (over 200,000 dead)

Rwanda 1993 (about 1 million dead - Christian clergy actively involved in killings)

Chechenya 1994 to PRESENT (20% of the population killed)

Congo 1996-2003 (perhaps 5 million dead)

How about Kosovo 1999? (another 10,000)

I'm sure I could find more if I wanted to, but time is tight.

If you want to argue that Islam has some issues & that Revolutionary Islam is a potential threat then knock yourself out. You'll find no shortage of people here (including Muslims) happy to join in.

If you want to make broad brush assertions about 'the Muslims' & the history of Islam OR if you want to pretend that Islam is somehow uniquely violent/expansionist/bloody etc. etc. than expect to be challenged at every step.

S-2 · 03-17-2008, 08:47 AM

It's all B.S. Religion is the opium of the un-educated masses and is exploited as such. It has great value but is just another tool of political mobilization in the wrong hands and a pliable audience.

Education, free press, unfettered and free trade, good laws, strong courts, and respect for institutions. Hard to achieve. Always worth it. The only answer.

Big K · 03-17-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigfella

If you want to make broad brush assertions about 'the Muslims' & the history of Islam OR if you want to pretend that Islam is somehow uniquely violent/expansionist/bloody etc. etc. than expect to be challenged at every step.

well said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by S-2

It's all B.S. Religion is the opium of the un-educated masses and is exploited as such. It has great value but is just another tool of political mobilization in the wrong hands and a pliable audience.

Education, free press, unfettered and free trade, good laws, strong courts, and respect for institutions. Hard to achieve. Always worth it. The only answer.

and heres the point...

03-15-2008, 19:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
gunnut *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-27-06 Location: DPRK, Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 8,519 Country:	Well, at least they are suing rather than chopping heads off. __________________ "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

03-15-2008, 19:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
Tarek Morgen Contributor Join Date: 02-08-07 Location: Kassel Posts: 651 Country:	You must see it positive, it seems that they are at least adopting (parts of the ) american way of life. __________________ uh I might be wrong

03-17-2008, 08:47 AM	#14 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Bend, Oregon Posts: 1,869 Country:	Tribes and Orthodox-Muslim Friction It's all B.S. Religion is the opium of the un-educated masses and is exploited as such. It has great value but is just another tool of political mobilization in the wrong hands and a pliable audience. Education, free press, unfettered and free trade, good laws, strong courts, and respect for institutions. Hard to achieve. Always worth it. The only answer. __________________ "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Nice article on weapons in Iraq	Captain C	Small Arms and Personal Weapons	52	02-09-2007 16:32 PM
'Nerve gas bomb' explodes in Iraq	Trooth	International Defense Topics	38	12-28-2005 10:27 AM
Guys Rules	THL	World Affairs Board Pub	8	12-08-2005 14:33 PM

03-15-2008, 19:56 PM	#5 (permalink)
lwarmonger *Military Professional* Join Date: 02-08-05 Posts: 1,756	I find it amusing that the Muslims are taking pages out of the Scientology playing book. Perhaps they are considering a new prophet?

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)