Expat Canuck

Big Fella, I like reading your stuff you certainly do provoke though if I can't always agree.

7thsfsniper

Oh dear,You can get away with a lot around here, but take a swipe at middle aged englishmen or Winston Churchill (OK, the same thing) and its jihad time.

But I won't cut off your head for not accepting my views.

Sniper, observant Jews & committed Catholics can both get religious divorces. I'm pretty sure the Jewish version allows for decisions on property, not sure on the Catholic one. You really need to get out more.

I DON"T CARE! They don't want to kill me! And BTW. Did I mention, I'M MARRIED TO A CATHOLIC-I'll ask her.

The Ward Churchill crack is disturbing. It tells me that you are one of these people who assumes that if a person disagrees with them on one or two issues then they fit some pro forma set of opinions. This says more about your need to beat up on conveniently constructed straw men then it does about my beliefs.

You assumed I was a fan of Winston based on my statements. YOU chose him for me. I chose Ward for you. As far as your phsyco-analyzation of me, your way off, I prefer to beat up people in person(dark alleys are best!)

Oh, and if Churchill (Winston) had his way I would now be speaking Japanese. You would still be speaking English reguardless. Hooray for me! Sooooo what IS your beef with him? I would think you should b grateful.Do yur homework.Sorry, schools out for me.

AmericansNot all of Us. You really shouldn't generalize. struggle to understand this. (yes, I know he got voted back in a few years later. You Brits do have a sentimental streak).

Oh, and if the video in question was supposed to be satire then I retract my comments. Viewed as such it was very funny. You mean you WASTED even more of your precious time and watched the whole mindless, bigoted, whiney thing!?

To the gathered masses: stories on TV & 'shock horror' articles in the paper do not constitute understanding of something as complex as a 1500 year old legal code. What "complex" is there to understand about murder and flat out human rights abuses? Are those reports lying?

I don't judge Hinduism by those extremists who still sacrifice children (yes, it does happen), want to bring back the suttee (spelling correct?), or burn Christian missionaries & their children to death. I extend the same courtesy to other religions. Apparently I am a lone voice in that respect.
OK. Here we are not arguing. And this has been my point all along. I just guess I haven't stated it plainly, so I will. "Extremists" is the key word here. Throughout history all religions that have been taken and ran away with by fanatics have caused problems. At this point in history the main antagonist is extremist islam. The beginning of this thread stated if they can't take us by force, they will use our own courts. Each and every time I refer to Muslims as a problem, in this or any other thread, I AM referring to extremists ONLY.

My next door nieghbor and my boss at work are Jewish, my wife and mother in law are Catholic. My family is baptist. I work with every race, religion and ethnicity represented including Muslims(gasp). I love them all, mainly because none of them want me dead (as far as I know anyway)because I don't believe in any God. We all get along very well and to my surprise the muslims are more vocal against the extremists than I.

One woman who I worked with several years back was an American who married an Iranian here. She later lived in Iran under the ayatollah and had to accept Islam. I'll take her first hand horror stories as proof enough of what can be.

Take note of my signature. Its latin, you're educated, you should know it. Its the motto of the U.S.Army Green berets. Its what we do, like it or not. I'm no longer in the service but still believe in what I did and what they do now. We used to have a saying " Like it or not I'm saving your ass!" I'd even save yours...............Like it or not!

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Don't run, you'll only die tired!

7thsfsniper

I'm assuming you are a muslim(your handle is a bit confusing). I don't think ADUX is saying anything different than what your are. There are a lot of uneducated people out there who see a turban and think suicide bomber (i dont think ADUX is one). Unfortunately its what they get in the sound byte oriented media these days. I think what I have found here at the WAB is people who are, or are trying to, expand thier knowledge. I think I may have even learned something from BIGFELLA(even though not sure exactly what, yet).

The Muslims I know here are from Pakistan as well. One just returned from a trip home and whatever part the country she was in, is beginning to experience some unrest from radicals. She was born here but has family there and is actually getting worried with the current situation.

I would be interested to hear your opinion on the thread starter post. I think the thread has meandered a little.

Adux

Oh dear,
Calling me Xenophobic pointing out the obivious, From the Mopla Movement; muslims have killed for the sake of some unidentified ummah.


Show me one muslim society, other than turkey which has given equal standing to its minority like the west or India. I dont care about Islam or muslims nor anyother religion but i care about me.
You can tell that to people in the west, having lived among both Hindu's, Christains and Muslims all my life, I see no difference between the intolerent brahmins of yesteryears to that of the muslims. Having a concept like ZAKAT ingrained in your books only confirms my belief in your true intentions, A muslim will always see me as a second-class human being because of my belief.


Muslim societies in general hasnt grown in the level of west, West for all its crusades, colonization and jew-bashing is no longer that today, One cannot say the same for the islamic society. I have been to many middle-eastern countries and I do know how my people are treated there, and pakistani are even worse off. No brown skinned man will have to endure such humilation ever in the west, it might have happened in the past but not definitly now. And the way they humilate and scorn upon Hindu's(on the basis of their idol worship), christains and jews is unprecedented in the west and India.

The ulema is the mirror image of the people it serve and to be honest the new muslims are more radical than the old one's. So are the new ulema. The best example for this is United Kingdom.

T_igger_cs_30

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FEAR NAUGHT

I don't work here ...I am an analyst!

Bigfella

How to take a good old fashioned hiding? Just kidding Sniper

It is almost bedtime here, so I don't have time to jump back in. A day away might not be the worst thing. I think this is getting more heated than it should. I think we actually agree on a lot more than either of us might have thought at first blush. Back in a day or two to try unravelling all this before it gets too silly.

Talk soon.

BF

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Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

Bigfella

By all means Gamercube. I won't even charge royalties (not much of a capitalist me).

Bigfella

Thanx expat. Truth be told, I'm not sure I always agree with myself. Once the contrarian in me gets going, however, I can get a wee bit carried away.

p.s. If you ever want to catch up fpr a beer just PM me.

Agnostic Muslim

What the article suggests as the criteria for taking legal action against defamation - "slighting of their religion or its sacred symbols" - I disagree with.

I suppose one could make the argument that widespread "defamation" might result in negative or even xenophobic sentiments against the segment of society being targeted, and in the extreme, could this be equated to the hysteria and propoganda against the Jews by the Nazis, and the "anti-Jew, anti-West propoganda in some Muslim countries today?

That said, I don't think the situation in the West is anywhere close to the above. While some commentators and a section of the media do tend to focus solely on the negativity of Islam, there is also opportunity given for Muslim organizations and personalities to present their opinion and views. I think that would be the more effective manner to target "defamation", ensure that Muslim organizations are effectively lobbying to have their voice heard.

There also needs to be a lot more inter-community interaction than there is currently. Last summer I was invited to an interfaith dialog at a local Episcopal Church, organized by the Islamic Students Association on campus (though I ended up being invited by a lady I knew who went to the church, since I am not a regular mosque attendee - if my moniker didn't give that away).

The lack of information, or misinformation, about each others positions was quite surprising. You could see the discomfort of the audience in the beginning from how everyone was just tense and unsmiling, by the end however, there were laughs, handshakes, some hugs and suggestions to widen the initiative by contacting other churches and mosques.

Its just amazing how much is accomplished by people to people contacts, when those contacts occur with the intent of understanding the other side, rather than imposing ones view. To borrow from Obama - non-Mulsims need to look beyond the stereotype, and try and understand Muslim sensitivities (not to be equated with curtailing free speech and cutting back on the satire), while Muslims need to understand why some non-Muslims have the fears they do.

Ultimately these issues are best resolved through dialog and interaction between communities, because then each side realizes that the actions of the other are not out of spite or an intent to insult or impose ones beliefs, but an expression of that communities own strongly held beliefs.

Hope that helps clarify my position.

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Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah

Agnostic Muslim

Adux:

The question was simple enough - prove to me that your assertion, that a majority of Muslims are against interfaith dialog and interfaith tolerance.

You mention nations, but unless you can guarantee that every Muslim nation has a perfectly established democratic process that perfectly represents the religious opinions of the people, rather than economic and/or political needs, cultural influences, nationalism and/or tribalism - you cannot make the argument that the laws and policies of those nations validate your argument of Muslims being intolerant, more than any other religion at least.

Adux

Prove to me that they are not? You cant, So lets not play this game of cat and mouse, I have been on this forums long enough to know a cloak and dagger theme when I see one.

You still havent named one Islamic society(excluding turkey) that was tolerent of others beliefs and choices. You cant. Governments and Kingdoms are representative of the people and their culture. Its in the culture of those countries to be intolerent with religoin, and their culture is really intertwined, Its not the fault of other religions or people that you cannot differentiate between Islam and Arabic Tribal culture which you follow now.

Muslims in general are quite intolerent on other choices and beliefs, there were times when christainity, Hinduism and others were exactly the same, but they have toned it down, changed themseleves to live in a world there are more than just one religion. Islam still uses violence and intimidation in its quest to make every man a muslim and very woman slave under a black burqa.

Agnostic Muslim

Adux:

From a Pakistanis perspective - the recent elections this year resulted in a large majority of Pakistanis voting for the PPP, MQM, PML-Q, ANP - all of these political parties stand for a moderate and tolerant society, one where Muslims and non-Muslims have equal rights. Whether they will be able to finish the task that Musharraf started, of removing the obscurantist and discriminatory laws set in place by Zia, we shall see, but overtly at least they have declared their position, and the people chose them.

Agnostic Muslim

Your allegation - yours to prove.

I cannot prove that something doesn't exist, if it doesn't exist - i.e I cannot prove a negative. Its your burden to show that this "widespread intolerance" exists.

Its the same argument a lot of atheists use against the existence of God - its the theists job to prove God exists, not the atheists to prove a negative.

No cloak and dagger stuff here - its one of the first things you learn in Philosophy class....

Adux

Agnositic Muslim,

Easy, Show me one Muslim country which is as tolerent as the West or India. There is a reason they call themselves Islamic Countries. So if it is written and followed in their countries to treat non-muslims as second class citizens by not allowing the same facilities and freedom enjoyed by the muslim community, then THEY ARE INTOLERENT. Somehow Turkey is an exception not the norm, which further cements my assertions. If you want I can show you the poll showing pakistani's supporting Al-Qaeda and Taliban.
I am sure you have seen it to,

There was a picture I posted, and the mods deleted it, I 'dont' and I 'do' understand why they did it. Therefore I wont the post the picture of a Pakistani soldier looking at Bangladeshi man's penis to see wether it is uncut or not. If it is uncut(Hindu) he is going to tandoori pan.

Adux

Dear Agnostic Muslim,

Tell that to some people who dont know about the politics of your region, its quite easy to fool members here from western countries who do not understand the indepth the political mess that is your country. PPP, MQM will be considered to the BNP, RSS, KKK by the standards of free countries. None of those parties above support a tolerent society where there is equality of laws and oppertunities for all its people. Lets not even speak about Ahemdiya's, Shia's(not exactly in the same box. but still), Hindu's, Sikhs, Christains of Pakistan. None of them eligable to the heighest office in your country and various other posts. It is still ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan, which stands for intolerence.