Kansas Bear

Excuse me for interrupting, are you insinuating that nationalism(for lack of a better term) has been the influential force in terms of a belligerent form of Islam?

Agnostic Muslim

Samudra:

I believe Justice Bhagwandas took the Constitutional oath for Justices of the Supreme Court, which started off with "In the name of Allah". That part was inserted, as you correctly mentioned, by Zia. I don't think there was a Quran involved.

It shouldn't be there, or at the very least should be optional for non-Muslims. But liek any thing else, it will take time and political stability for change to come through. I would like the issue to that of the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance in the US.

Many people may not care for it, but to remove it will require national discourse and political stability and some sort of consensus. Right now, unless the PPP can do so quietly, the GoP has far more pressing matters to attend to. Issues like this will only give the extremist more ammo for "selling out to the West" propoganda right now. Allow the democratic process some continuity and stability.

__________________
Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah

Agnostic Muslim

No - In fact I would argue that while the Muslim world is not a monolithic entity (talking about the vast majority of moderates, IMO, here) in terms of faith and how they practice and express it, the "belligerent form of Islam" seems to have an underlying homogeneity and "uniformity of cause", once you get past whatever the initial, "apparent" causal factors are.

The "belligerent" movements are given nationalistic cover - it is perhaps used as a catalyst to start off the movement (Iraq and Afghanistan for example). That said, one of my (and others) major criticisms of some Muslim posters in other forums is that they place religion above nationalism. I think that for Islamic extremists (and even some moderates) there exists a sort of "Islamic nationalism" - the Khilafat encompassing the Muslim world, the Ummah, Muslim brotherhood.

The nation is Islam, and its citizens are Muslims.

I apologize if I was all over the place with my response - getting a bit late......

Samudra

All the same. Bagwan Das cannot become Chief Justice if he won't display allegience to Islam.

You very well know this is case in many countries. The legal sanctioned discrimination is so derogatory in 'moderate' Malaysia.

Now try counting the number of people who'll have the courage to speak up against this sort of discrimination. Start with Pakistan and wonder why none will speak for the kaffirs. Complicit in crime.

Agnostic Muslim

Like I mentioned, the pledge of allegiance does the same to an atheist, or someone who associates it with a "God" other than their own.

There is no magic wand to wave and set the worlds faults all right in an instance. It will take time.

Pakistan has progressed leaps and bounds in the past twenty years, despite all the turmoil, and we will continue to progress.

Samudra

All the best. There is nobody who'll benefit like India if Pakistan truly progresses in all spheres and vice versa. Unfortunately neither do many Indians and Pakistanis recognise this.

Leaps and bounds - I'll leave it to the future to decide.

Somebody has to start - without the American's having to nudge.

Kansas Bear

No apology needed.....

Agnostic Muslim

That is based on a comparison with the Zia years - the changes are clearly evident.

Change, wherever it comes from, however it comes, is welcome. The Americans "nudged" on the Taliban - the rest was Pakistan.

Adux -

Projects, Exams and Final papers coming up. So while I may log on to read your response, I'm afraid I wont be able to post (or will at least make a strong attempt not to) a response for a couple of weeks.

Love not hate

Cheers

Parihaka

Good luck AgM

Kansas Bear

Been there, done that.....Major course of study?

Agnostic Muslim

Thanks Parihaka,

Kansas Bear:

Electrical Engineering,

7thsfsniper

Ag Mus, I would appreciate you quoting me correctly. I have always and consistantly said, "I care not for your belief, if you care not for mine" my contention is with extremism. If you hate me for what I belive, and want to kill me for it. Well bring it. If you want to practice your belief in peace, you will never hear from me until some one else wants to tromp you and then I will come to your defense. Do you get what I am saying?

I don't even know what the hell you guys are talking about half the time with your indepth examinations of all the factions and party stuff, I'm a simple man with a simple solution. Get along or get out! This stuff is so simple its riduculous. Those who want personal gain always seem to complicate it.

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The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten

Kansas Bear

Above my head, I'm a simple historian.............

Samudra

Meaning you're half mad already.

I only need to study one paper in EE to become fully mad.

Adux

Agnositc Muslim,

You are all over the place


Adu