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03-28-2008, 12:00 PM
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#151 (permalink)
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Join Date: 12-12-07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adux
Ag,
you know very well where and whom I was refering to.
are the Nordic people in Africa? Look at the LAST LINE of my post.
Are you European countries 'Christain' in the same effect as 'Islamic' in Pakistan or the countries of Middle East... you are in the US, do you feel that your are in a less-advantegous position 'legally' than any of your 'christain' comptraiots.
So Stop playing games.
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I am not the one playing games. You have very clearly specified Islam and Islamic States out of all the other religions. If you want to re characterize your argument as one against any religious state, I am all for it.
The data about the Christian nations in Africa and Latin America and is meant to show you that it is not the "Islamic world" alone that is involved in atrocities, recent ones, since you want to put "time" qualifiers on it.
If you want to compare with the "Nordics", why only the Islamic world? Why not simply, the "developing world" or "all religious states". Its a flawed comparison otherwise.
__________________
Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
Last edited by Agnostic Muslim : 03-28-2008 at 12:03 PM.
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03-28-2008, 12:04 PM
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#152 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adux
A western countries of today, wont even contemplate genocide as a method for national objectivies, you have third world countries like pakistan doing that just 3 decades ago.
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You have absolutely no idea how false that is.
And unlike the fanatics who jump with joys with cries for the 72 virgins, we'll do it by the numbers ... and that is more scary than any head chopper could ever dream of.
__________________
Chimo
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03-28-2008, 12:08 PM
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#153 (permalink)
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And right now, Gentlemen, you're talking past each other.
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03-28-2008, 12:09 PM
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#154 (permalink)
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Banished
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim
That a Muslim State can progress and evolve is now the issue,
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Explain HOW?
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since you seem to have given up on proving that there is "wide spread intolerance and dislike for interfaith dialog in the Muslim world", any more than in other religions.
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No, I have no problem,
Poll: Bin Laden tops Musharraf in Pakistan - CNN.com
Pew Global Attitudes Project: Summary of Findings: Islamic Extremism: Common Concern for Muslim and Western Publics
If you want more
majority of pakistan support Osama bin laden - Google Search
Quote:
Going back to Pakistan, as imperfect a State as it is - bar the PM and President, minorities can be elected to any office they like, so far as I know. A Hindu was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court after the dismissal of the CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry
We have Hindu and, until his recent conversion to Islam, Christian sports stars. The PPP has declared its intent to remove any discriminatory laws against minorities, such as the Hudood laws (which did not exist in the Pakistani constitution until a few decades ago until inserted by a dictator).
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From getting admission in a school or college of choosing, to development to of the neighbourhood of minorities, to have people pick a minority candidate for a job, we had the same problem we did reservation.
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So yes, I feel extremely happy about the future of Pakistan as a moderate Islamic State, where for all intents and purposes, minorities will have all the rights that Muslims do.
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Good luck to Pakistan, though I doubt it very much.
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They will be denied the two highest offices in the land, something I would like to see rectified as we mature as a democracy, but I am not going to get hung up over something that has almost no bearing on the lives of the minorities in Pakistan.
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That's something I just highlighted, thats not the only thing. And you know it.
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If there is a "White State", that then says that all laws and rights apply equally to every one regardless of color, I would not think of it as an "Apartheid State" - even if restricted the two highest offices of the land to the majority Whites. Like I indicated before, I would prefer that not be the case, but since it would have little practical effect on the lives of the non-Whites, I would not be particularly perturbed by it.
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Stop playing the 'two highest offices' comment I have made. You know very well that is not what I meant when I told you to imagine it is a 'White'. Stop your word play, Maybe you are ready to be a second-class citizen or being denied something(however small or menial) just because of your colour or religion. Sorry Human beings arent.
What about Zakat, do you want me to post who accident insurance is given in Saudi Arabia? |
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03-28-2008, 12:11 PM
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#155 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
You have absolutely no idea how false that is.
And unlike the fanatics who jump with joys with cries for the 72 virgins, we'll do it by the numbers ... and that is more scary than any head chopper could ever dream of.
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Sir,
You as a person who doesnt predict future, I astonished you hold that view. After such a thing as 9/11, I didnt see Americans nuking Mecca and Medina. They are bloody well capable of killing very muslim soul they want to, in retaliation. But they didnt.
It doesnt mean, they wont for some unforseen reason, in the future. But they didnt for something as big as 9/11
Which again shows how tolerent as well as level-headed the west has become.
Last edited by Adux : 03-28-2008 at 12:15 PM.
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03-28-2008, 12:16 PM
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#156 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adux
Sir,
You as a person who doesnt predict future, I astonished you hold that view. After such a thing as 9/11, I didnt see Americans nuking Mecca and Medina. Which again shows how tolerent as well as level-headed the west has become.
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What you failed to realize is that before 11 Sept, Mecca and Medina were some backwater target to be nuked if we had nukes left over and if it fits the strategy at the time. After 11 Sept, the scenario has been war gamed out. In other words, if and when Mecca and Medina are decided to be targets, then subsequent subordinate targets are already spelled out.
By the numbers. |
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03-28-2008, 12:21 PM
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#157 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
What you failed to realize is that before 11 Sept, Mecca and Medina were some backwater target to be nuked if we had nukes left over and if it fits the strategy at the time. After 11 Sept, the scenario has been war gamed out. In other words, if and when Mecca and Medina are decided to be targets, then subsequent subordinate targets are already spelled out.
By the numbers.
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The Question is, what are the buttons that has to be pushed to make USA take such a drastic action, 9/11 didnt do it. WoT has failed to. Thankfully the Americans are today more tolerent and somehow ready to punishment not making the middle east a huge glass bowl, by not using her incredible power that is in her hand, I will have to commend them on that. |
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03-28-2008, 12:21 PM
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#158 (permalink)
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Your polls are out dated:
Quote:
Terror Free Tomorrow's poll also found that Pakistani's public support for radical Islamic groups -- including al Qaeda, its leader Osama bin Laden, and the Taliban -- has significantly dropped in the past five months.
In August, 46 percent of Pakistanis polled in a TFT survey said they had a favorable opinion of bin Laden; that dropped to 24 percent in last month's poll. Support for the Taliban dropped during the same time period from 38 to 19 percent.
In the News Archive - Polls: Musharraf, al Qaeda losing support
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I posted this two pages back, as well as posing the question, "How many Pakistanis supporting OBL think that he actually is responsible for 911 and terrorism?" - which then formed the basis of my discussion with Chanakya.
More specifically, on the issue of terrorism,
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WASHINGTON - Those who think that Muslim countries and pro-terrorist attitudes go hand-in-hand might be shocked by new polling research: Americans are more approving of terrorist attacks against civilians than any major Muslim country except for Nigeria.
The survey, conducted in December 2006 by the University of Maryland's prestigious Program on International Public Attitudes, shows that only 46 percent of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24 percent believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."
Contrast those numbers with 2006 polling results from the world's most-populous Muslim countries – Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria. Terror Free Tomorrow, the organization I lead, found that 74 percent of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86 percent; in Bangladesh, 81 percent.
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That was 2006, I believe polls in 2007 indicated opposition to violence and terrorism was even higher in Pakistan, not surprising considering we suffered a tremendous amount from it. |
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03-28-2008, 12:24 PM
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#159 (permalink)
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AG,
2007 is not outdated. And even more ; 24% down from 86%..lol Not something I call favourable nor a minority.
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03-28-2008, 12:26 PM
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#160 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adux
The Question is, what are the buttons that has to be pushed to make USA take such a drastic action, 9/11 didnt do it. WoT has failed to. Thankfully the Americans are today more tolerent and somehow ready to punishment not making the middle east a huge glass bowl, by not using her incredible power that is in her hand, I will have to commend them on that.
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I would argue the complete opposite. Cold blooded focus. |
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03-28-2008, 12:28 PM
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#161 (permalink)
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Adux:
You keep referring to "you know what I am talking about" - I don't. If you are referring to a sort of "social/cultural" discriminatory attitudes towards minorities inherent in Pakistanis, well, guess what most people would agree that racism to a small degree exists in the US as well.
You cannot "legislate" that sentiment away, that occurs when societies evolve and interact with other cultures.
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03-28-2008, 12:30 PM
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#162 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adux
AG,
2007 is not outdated. And even more ; 24% down from 86%..lol Not something I call favourable nor a minority.
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So you consider 14 percent support for terrorism, or alternatively 24 percent support for OBL (not considering whether those supporting him think he is responsible for terrorism) evidence of "widespread intolerance and dislike for interfaith dialog"?
We have different understandings of what "widespread" means then.
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Stop playing the 'two highest offices' comment I have made. You know very well that is not what I meant when I told you to imagine it is a 'White'. Stop your word play, Maybe you are ready to be a second-class citizen or being denied something(however small or menial) just because of your colour or religion. Sorry Human beings arent.
What about Zakat, do you want me to post who accident insurance is given in Saudi Arabia?
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If you are referring to legal obstacles, those are the only two that I currently see no political will, and possibly no popular support, to remove.
You can narrate all the existing discriminatory laws you want, my argument is that I see a will amongst Pakistanis to remove most of those obscurantist laws, while keeping the Islamic State identity - that the majority of the political parties elected have long maintained support for measures that rid the constitution of Zia's aberrations, and that all of that indicates that an Islamic State can indeed evolve into a progressive State with equality and rights for all.
Last edited by Agnostic Muslim : 03-28-2008 at 12:37 PM.
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03-28-2008, 12:30 PM
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#163 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
I would argue the complete opposite. Cold blooded focus.
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How so Sir, I am sure everything must have simmered down now after 9/11, Doesnt the US attitude towards COIN show us exactly that.
I remember years back you, Pari and M21sniper having a discussion on a nuclear attack in the middle east if there was a dirty bomb attack on US soil or something to that effect. |
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03-28-2008, 12:33 PM
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#164 (permalink)
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Banished
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim
Adux:
You keep referring to "you know what I am talking about" - I don't. If you are referring to a sort of "social/cultural" discriminatory attitudes towards minorities inherent in Pakistanis, well, guess what most people would agree that racism to a small degree exists in the US as well.
You cannot "legislate" that sentiment away, that occurs when societies evolve and interact with other cultures.
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I have given you proper replies and you have again side-stepped them without giving me proper answers, I know you are very well versed with forums. So unless you reply to them, I am not going to respond. I dont like this going in circles, until I loose sight of what I am talking about. I know that technique very well. |
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03-28-2008, 12:47 PM
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#165 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adux
I have given you proper replies and you have again side-stepped them without giving me proper answers, I know you are very well versed with forums. So unless you reply to them, I am not going to respond. I dont like this going in circles, until I loose sight of what I am talking about. I know that technique very well.
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You have been given answers, you just don't like them because they don't fit your world view and the trumped up narrative of Pakistan and Pakistanis you and some other Indians cling to in order to dehumanize us.
I am still waiting to hear from you on how 14 percent equates "widespread". |
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