Support closing Guantanamo by wearing Orange - Page 6

Bluesman · 01-11-2008, 20:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ace16807

Can someone clarify this for me? In the case of an insurgent firing upon collation troops, the collation troops disable him/capture him, and have him detained, he is sent to Guantanamo in due to right?

Not unless he's 'somebody'. Just being in combat with our guys isn't enough for your Cuban beach vacation. Either you're hardcore aQ, an HVI, suspected of possessing information of value, etc. But just scrimagging with our Blokes? Nah.

ace16807 · 01-11-2008, 20:21 PM

Alright. Thanks for that clarification.

I'm not gonna get involved in this debate. However, all I can say is. Supergeek. You aren't exactly what your name is implying in this topic. Your points aren't holding any water.

HistoricalDavid · 01-11-2008, 20:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesman

WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR! I would've thought that would be obvious. As obvious as the absolute imperative of winning same, and just how the hell are we supposed to do that, when whole units get called to testify,

Video-link. Soldiers in Iraq are posting much video on YouTube after all.

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and careful evidence collection is required, with chains of custody and investigative qualifications and forensic standards expected to be upheld so that 'crime scenes' and witness statements aren't contaminated...

Now that's a watertight point. The best I can say is the standards will be lower than our comfortable Western legal civilisation but better than tribunal.

What process led to about 400 of the ~800 total being freed, and why can it not be applied to the rest?

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Look, let me ask you a question: would any of you civil libertarians that are so hot to grant all these prisoners we're rounding up - and ALL are taken with a good-faith effort to get the Bad Guys, and leave the others alone - have supported trials for military-age German males taken during the heat of battle in 1945? How 'bout Japanese? We KNOW each able-bodied (and some that weren't so able bodied) males were on-the-spot conscripted into the army during the last days of the collapsing Third Reich and Imperial Japan, so, basically, if you're found ANYwhere within the vicinity of fighting...into the stockade you go. And that was the correct thing to do.

How many prisoners of war were there in the immediate aftermath of WWII? I have no hard figures, but I suppose it numbers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

VS

How many detainees are held in Gitmo? It's 355 according to a quick wiki. Hardly comparable to the practical difficulties of administering justice to countless millions PoWs.

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Same here: that guy in Gitmo is NOT just some simple goat-herd on a hillside that the Yanks stormed for the express purpose of throwing anybody with a beard in jail. There's almost ALWAYS a dam' good reason that they're at Gitmo. Sometimes, mistakes are made, and that sucks. The remedy? Do the best we can with tribunals.

I don't believe for a second that innocent goat-herders end up in Gitmo for a good reason, for a combination of moral trust in the majority of American servicemen and in consideration of the practicalities - out of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of men there, they chose about 800 total to ship off. However, as you say, mistakes are made and a reasonable suspicion may turn out to be a false alarm.

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It's not perfect justice, but I trust the men that are making a good-faith effort. We know they err on the detainee's side sometimes, because we've killed former prisoners on the battlefield subsequent to their release, one only 18 miles from where we caught him the first time.

TRIALS??? You must be mad. Do you even have any idea what the implications are for that? All the stuff I just mentioned, PLUS a hundred other things that nobody has even thought of yet, but a motivated anti-war busybody gadfly of a civil rights leftie lawyer WOULD, and the next thing you know, we're letting real, honest-to-Allah Bad Guys go right straight back to the battlefield, because William Kunstler Jr, Esq. got him off on a technicality.

Which part is the fault with there? With the legal system which tangles itself up so much?

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This is simple madness that's taken hold of ANYbody that calls for real jury trials in wartime for rank-and-file enemy detainees. This is one EXCELLENT example of how the very things that make our society superior and BETTER than our enemies' can be used against us. And the soft-headed among us - looking right at you, greek and David - will get us all killed, if we listen to their romantic, idealistic notions of what's 'fair'.

...And breathe. The possibility of innocents being locked up is hardly something objectionable only to romantic, idealistic notions of what's fair. Regardless, while supergreek plasters you with his broken English and Gitmo snapshots, my point is how do you know these people are guilty. See below.

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The reason we should be so reluctant to go to war is because it makes things like tribunals - imperfect justice - the best we can do in wartime.

Now, shut up all this goddamned maundering bilgewater about how we're letting down our values when we treat people that play by NO rules and behave like subhuman jungle creatures that have absolutely NO decency nor morality with so VERY much greater care and respect than they're entitled to, if there were any REAL justice at Gitmo.

I never said anything about how we're 'letting down our values', so I presume that's directed at supergreek. That's not the main point from me, though I admit it an attractive secondary point. And their cowardly fighting method doesn't excuse the bad from the good guys - unless 'you did it first' kindergarten logic is valid.

The big point is, how do you know they're guilty well enough to lock them up? This isn't the same as making a split-second decision in combat whether or not to shoot a possible enemy, or emergency cases of martial law and curfews being imposed to restore order; you have these men in custody and they're not going anywhere, and they number 355, in comparison to the 2 million strong regular US prison population, for example. IIRC.

The whole point is whether they're guilty or not. If they are... well I don't agree with torture, and, worthless ultra-leftist commie Hillary-lovin' Obama-promotin' ACLU PC-brigade armchair lawyer as I am, there are people, whom I suspect you respect, here who agree. Nevertheless, I won't be losing that much sleep over your activities with them.

**TopHatter** · 01-11-2008, 21:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supergreek

its the way all the americans have sided against me.

You've put forth a strong anti-American opinions and accusations about the United States and the War on Terror, a very controversial subject and what were you expecting would happen?

This is the big boy board. If you're not willing to back up your opinion with cold hard facts, then you're in for a heap of trouble here.

Grow the hell up or get the hell out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crooks

Oh c'mon, he has a point - can he not be given the opportunity to present his side of the argument for fear of running foul of half the boards Americans at once?

Argument? What argument? I haven't seen anything remoted resembling debate or fact-presenting from him. Just a lot of emotional opinions about how the United States caused the War on Terror all by itself and how Gitmo is holding all of these innocent people that didnt do a thing to warrant their detention there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crooks

LET 'IM SPEAK, if he makes a fool of 'imself, grand, tear him open in a debate, but don't do this cheap gang up that happens all to often when someone tries to make an unpopular point.

He's already made a fool of himself.

Major Dad · 01-12-2008, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

What process led to about 400 of the ~800 total being freed, and why can it not be applied to the rest?

Maybe it has been, and they actually are honest-to-God, no-sh*it terrorists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

How many prisoners of war were there in the immediate aftermath of WWII? I have no hard figures, but I suppose it numbers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

VS

How many detainees are held in Gitmo? It's 355 according to a quick wiki. Hardly comparable to the practical difficulties of administering justice to countless millions PoWs.

Don't you think it's a little premature to assume we're in the 'immediate aftermath' of our struggle with militant Islam?

gunnut · 01-12-2008, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supergreek

alright then if you want be to be spefic then the quote was stated by Murat Kurnaz's

Murat Kurnaz (born March 19, 1982 in Bremen, Germany) was held in extrajudicial detention and claims to have been tortured[1] in the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, Cuba for four years. Kurnaz, a Turkish citizen and legal resident of Germany, was in the process of becoming a German citizen when he was arrested in Pakistan in late 2001. His detainee ID number is 61. After being imprisoned for five years he was released and arrived in Germany August 24, 2006.[2]

Kurnaz is one of the detainees who has alleged that he was subject to interrogation techniques that included suffocation by drowning, sexual humiliation, beatings, heat or cold and the desecration of his religion.

So what makes this guy or any one else more believeable than the "propaganda" we've been told?

Do you ever question what these people have said? Is it possible that they're lying? If a murderer tells a TV station that he didn't kill anyone, would you believe him?

A Turk tells you that Cyprus belongs to Turkey and it always had, do you question his statement?

What makes you believe that Gitmo prisoners are intrinsically trustworthy?

Mobbme · 01-12-2008, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supergreek

Three British prisoners, now known in the media as the "Tipton Three," were released in 2004 without charge. The three have alleged ongoing torture, sexual degradation, forced drugging and religious persecution being committed by U.S. forces at Guantánamo Bay.

Shock rooms: "(In Guantanamo) I was subjected to severe torture. For three months, I stayed in these cold-hot shock rooms. When you go into the room they pump very hot air inside. After that, they pump extremely cold air. It is a horrifying kind of torture. There were various sorts of torture methods including electrical shocks, drowning in water tanks, depriving of food and water, chaining and hanging to the ceiling."

I witnessed people dying": "They brought a tub full of water. They dipped our heads and held them in water. There I witnessed many people die. They stripped us of our clothes, chaining and hanging us to the wall. I was kept hung to the wall for 4-5 days. Then doctor used to come and check if we could stand more or not. We were not given any food for 20 days. They only gave us one piece of toast, one carrot or one apple per day."

Guantanamo camp footage is fake": "After I was released I saw a lot of photos and video footage of Guantanamo detainment camp. Those are all fake and full of lies. Americans were selecting 2-3 detainees for the footage. They were giving mattresses, blankets, prayer beads and skullcaps to these detainees and were recording these videos. The documentary The Road to Guantanamo is a good work. But it is only telling 20 percent of what happened there. It is hard to show everything that happened over the years in one movie."

all these people were inocent

Alot of stuff gets exxagerated my friend. Once released they get offered money, and then blah blah anything goes for MORE money. It is natural. The part about people dying in the water dunkn', well you have to provide lots of evidence for that. If that were true, why would there be a doctor to come in and see the inmates? Why would they see if the inmates were able to stand, and see if they're healthy? This is twisted, and I know you can see it.

Aren't you happy that they all have a FAIR trial? And they are not executed in one line, which WE CAN do and NO ONE can stop us? But "Americans" are not like that, they give fair trail to even tyrants. Look at Saddam Hussein. Why wasn't he killed immediately? He's responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, but he was given a FAIR trial.

Mobbme · 01-12-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supergreek

How would you feel if you were draged from your home for no reson and placed into guantanamo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by supergreek

its the way all the americans have sided against me.

No Americans have sided against you. Its just a matter of opinion, thats all. If you were to ask any one of us North Americans, we absolutely LOVE Greece and GREEKS! We were the ones that made the movie 300 a phenomenon at the box offices!

Now to the first quote, thats not how they were captured. But if I was dragged from my home, yes i'd be very upset. But EVERYONE at the prison in Cuba was detained because they were caught red handed or posed a serious threat. Then they are given time to get a lawyer etc, and then a fair trial takes place. If you don't believe the FAIR TRIAL, ask those 3 that were released

We can say they were proven Not Guilty and now they live a free life. Thats how we want the world to be. The reason why they are sent directly there is because they can pose a seroius threat if they escape, or hurt guards etc,. We can't forget that they have "training" right? All security measures have to be met.

supergreek · 01-13-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopHatter

You've put forth a strong anti-American opinions and accusations about the United States and the War on Terror, a very controversial subject and what were you expecting would happen?

This is the big boy board. If you're not willing to back up your opinion with cold hard facts, then you're in for a heap of trouble here.

Grow the hell up or get the hell out.

Argument? What argument? I haven't seen anything remoted resembling debate or fact-presenting from him. Just a lot of emotional opinions about how the United States caused the War on Terror all by itself and how Gitmo is holding all of these innocent people that didnt do a thing to warrant their detention there.

He's already made a fool of himself.

simply saying that i have made a fool of my self without telling me WHY leaves me confused please elaborate.

supergreek · 01-13-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobbme

No Americans have sided against you. Its just a matter of opinion, thats all. If you were to ask any one of us North Americans, we absolutely LOVE Greece and GREEKS! We were the ones that made the movie 300 a phenomenon at the box offices!

Now to the first quote, thats not how they were captured. But if I was dragged from my home, yes i'd be very upset. But EVERYONE at the prison in Cuba was detained because they were caught red handed or posed a serious threat. Then they are given time to get a lawyer etc, and then a fair trial takes place. If you don't believe the FAIR TRIAL, ask those 3 that were released

We can say they were proven Not Guilty and now they live a free life. Thats how we want the world to be. The reason why they are sent directly there is because they can pose a seroius threat if they escape, or hurt guards etc,. We can't forget that they have "training" right? All security measures have to be met.

thank you for your feedback

,but im preety sure that if these 3 did not poses a brittish passport they would not have been realesed.

Ray · 01-13-2008, 12:20 PM

I prefer to wear the hues of the rainbow.

Gitmo is an enigma.

It is supposed to be holding terrorist horrors in captivity.

And yet, one reads of them getting released one by one.

If they are really a danger to humanity, then why are they being released?

I, however, feel that they should not be held in perpetuity. They should be charged and then jailed and the key thrown away!

gunnut · 01-13-2008, 18:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

I prefer to wear the hues of the rainbow.

Sir, I would advise against that. You might be mistaken for a denizen of San Francisco area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Gitmo is an enigma.

It is supposed to be holding terrorist horrors in captivity.

And yet, one reads of them getting released one by one.

If they are really a danger to humanity, then why are they being released?

I, however, feel that they should not be held in perpetuity. They should be charged and then jailed and the key thrown away!

Well, some of them are released due to lack of evidence to convict. In our judicial system, "not guilty" doesn't mean "innocent." It merely means there's some doubt about their guilt. They could still be guilty. We just don't have enough to convince the jury.

Look at OJ Simpson. There's a good chance that he was the murderer. The jury was not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. So he was declared "not guilty." The justice system never proclaimed him to be "innocent."

Mobbme · 01-13-2008, 21:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

Sir, I would advise against that. You might be mistaken for a denizen of San Francisco area.

Well, some of them are released due to lack of evidence to convict. In our judicial system, "not guilty" doesn't mean "innocent." It merely means there's some doubt about their guilt. They could still be guilty. We just don't have enough to convince the jury.

Look at OJ Simpson. There's a good chance that he was the murderer. The jury was not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. So he was declared "not guilty." The justice system never proclaimed him to be "innocent."

Yup. The saying goes "what goes around comes around, but 10 times harder" and OJ Simpson is back in jail with serious charges. And oh wait, he just got arrested again for breaching. He'll be locked away for a very very long time now

Mobbme · 01-13-2008, 21:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supergreek

thank you for your feedback ,but im preety sure that if these 3 did not poses a brittish passport they would not have been realesed.

No problem

Supergreek, I don't think that was the case. Because if they were guilty, and they were released because they had British passports, why would Britain accept them back?

Expat Canuck · 01-14-2008, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supergreek

nearly 800 detainees have been held in Guantanamo Bay, and about 300 of them have not been charged with a single crime. Only one Guantanamo detainee has been convicted by military commission and only three others have been charged for trial by military commission.

Greek, while I hate that one of Canada's allies and maybe Canada itself may be involved in torture, these men are not innocent. They are terrorist scum and the majority where caught holding AK 47's. Even those three men who where released, where where they picked up? Why where they in a combat zone in the company of terrorists?

I promise you that they will not be of much use any longer other than helping bust others if they where guilty as they will be watched the rest of their lives and most likely so will their families.

These people are eveil the vast majority of them or very misguided, still they made the choice.

I just don't think we should stoop to their level. We are better than them so we need to act like it.

01-13-2008, 12:20 PM	#86 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,232 Country:	I prefer to wear the hues of the rainbow. Gitmo is an enigma. It is supposed to be holding terrorist horrors in captivity. And yet, one reads of them getting released one by one. If they are really a danger to humanity, then why are they being released? I, however, feel that they should not be held in perpetuity. They should be charged and then jailed and the key thrown away! __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA

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01-11-2008, 20:21 PM	#77 (permalink)
ace16807 Regular Join Date: 01-01-08 Location: TN Posts: 98 Country:	Alright. Thanks for that clarification. I'm not gonna get involved in this debate. However, all I can say is. Supergeek. You aren't exactly what your name is implying in this topic. Your points aren't holding any water.

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