South Africa blames UK for Zimbabwe crisis

Ray · 08-13-2007, 13:31 PM

Quote:

South Africa blames UK for Zimbabwe crisis

Chris McGreal, Africa correspondent
Monday August 13, 2007
The Guardian

South Africa has blamed Britain for the deepening crisis in Zimbabwe by accusing the UK of leading a campaign to "strangle" the beleaguered African state's economy and saying it has a "death wish" against a negotiated settlement that might leave Robert Mugabe's Zanu-PF in power.

According to a South African government document circulating among diplomats ahead of a regional summit this week, President Thabo Mbeki will paint an optimistic picture of his efforts to broker an agreement between Mr Mugabe and the Zimbabwean opposition.

But the document, a draft of the report the South African president is expected to present at the meeting, says Britain remains a significant obstacle by spearheading sanctions that Mr Mugabe blames for his country's economic collapse.

"The most worrisome thing is that the UK continues to deny its role as the principal protagonist in the Zimbabwean issue and is persisting with its activities to isolate Zimbabwe," the report says.

"None of the western countries that have imposed the sanctions that are strangling Zimbabwe's economy have shown any willingness to lift them."

Britain pressed the European Union to impose "targeted sanctions" against Zimbabwe's leadership by refusing visas, freezing bank accounts and other measures that the UK said were aimed at individuals without harming Zimbabweans.

But Mr Mugabe has blamed what he describes as the "illegal sanctions" for the economic collapse and said his government is a victim of British imperialism because it seized white-owned farms for redistribution to poor blacks.

His opponents say the crisis is the result of a brutal strategy to hold on to power by violently suppressing the opposition, rigging elections and trying to buy support by seizing the farms. This last move devastated the tobacco export industry that provided Zimbabwe with much of its foreign earnings.

The wholesale printing of money helped fuel inflation now estimated to be running at about 20,000%. Shops are virtually empty of basic foodstuffs.

Some African leaders have been willing to criticise Mr Mugabe, although a Zambian opposition leader, Michael Sata, urged the region's leaders to "join hands and launch strong protests against attempts by the west to recolonise Zimbabwe".

The South African report describes the crisis as "Zimbabwe's bilateral dispute with Britain". However, the focus of Mr Mbeki's efforts is to reach an agreement between Mr Mugabe and the opposition Movement for Democratic Change ahead of elections next year.

Mr Mbeki has not had a smooth ride. Mr Mugabe's two negotiators, both cabinet ministers, failed to arrive for talks in South Africa last month. The ministers, Nicholas Goche and Patrick Chinamasa, finally arrived in Pretoria a week ago.

The document says some issues, including constitutional reforms, have been "worked out". "There are strong indications that the two sides are sliding towards an agreement," it says.

But MDC sources say that agreement is not near and they suspect that Mr Mugabe is playing for time until the end of the year when the focus will shift to the presidential election campaign. Meanwhile, the economic crisis is expected to deepen. More than 3 million Zimbabweans have left the country in search of work.

South Africa blames UK for Zimbabwe crisis | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

What is the truth?

While possibly the sanctions have impoverished Zimbabwe, but one can't also agree with the high handed way the farms were usurped!

It does not matter if it is white, brown or black who owned the farms. There must be a regime of law. Arbitrary actions or using armed militants cannot be accepted as a way of social change.

pdf27 · 08-13-2007, 13:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

What is the truth?

While possibly the sanctions have impoverished Zimbabwe, but one can't also agree with the high handed way the farms were usurped!

Ummm... does Zimbabwe actually produce anything that the UK would be interested in buying any more? IIRC previously it's only exports were agricultural produce and the output of a few mines (which will probably all go to South Africa anyway). Given that the agricultural sector is totally screwed up, to the extent that there are threats of famine, it is entirely possible that Zimbabwe has nothing to export and hence no cash for imports. If so, there can't actually be any sanctions in operation.

**astralis** · 08-13-2007, 14:00 PM

i don't know what the writers of the document are on, but i suspect it's pretty strong. sanctions don't mean squat to a country when the economy is not even self-sufficient, let alone exporting.

that's why sanctions are never very effective. in IR theory this is known as the paradox of the sanctions- they only work well if a country has a close, rich, trade with another; yet at the same time, that's also the scenario least likely to occur.

entropy · 08-13-2007, 20:13 PM

It's the "blame it on the white man" syndrome in action.

Mugabe is the real criminal. If someone threw a stone through your window, you blame the thrower, not the stone. Mugs throws UK sanction stones at his own people.
ANC makes me think about apartheid without the negative feelings. I am by no means a racist, but the transfer from apartheid into democracy was too fast. As it was in the USSR, instant democratization of a totalitarian society. Fast transfers don't work.
Apartheid should have been deconstructed gradually, as the US did with blacks' rights and China does with communism. Botha started a slow but working process. De Klerk just ruined it.

soutie · 08-14-2007, 05:41 AM

african politics ,blame everyone else but themselves and the need to stay in power,why would the west want to recolonize zimbabwe ,they have more important issues to deal with,this just proves that Mbeki is in the same mold as Mugabe ,they where handed over full working economies which in turn have been destroyed through mis management ,when Madiba passes on i feel things will get bad for South Africa Mbeki is a marxist just like Mugabe we will just have to wait and see.Its a good thing countries like Mozambique and Zambia are trying to stand on their own feet,they have their civil wars and starvation,its taking time but they are coming right ,they are actually trying to do things for themselves Zambia and Mozambique and even NIgeria do not mind who farms their land as long as it feeds people and is profitable ,as a Zambian politician qouted an old saying Give a man a fish you feed him for a day teach him how to fish feed him for a life time.In their case i think its correct Zimbabwe and South africa have a lot to learn still

entropy · 08-14-2007, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soutie

african politics ,blame everyone else but themselves and the need to stay in power,why would the west want to recolonize zimbabwe ,they have more important issues to deal with,this just proves that Mbeki is in the same mold as Mugabe ,they where handed over full working economies which in turn have been destroyed through mis management ,when Madiba passes on i feel things will get bad for South Africa Mbeki is a marxist just like Mugabe we will just have to wait and see.Its a good thing countries like Mozambique and Zambia are trying to stand on their own feet,they have their civil wars and starvation,its taking time but they are coming right ,they are actually trying to do things for themselves Zambia and Mozambique and even NIgeria do not mind who farms their land as long as it feeds people and is profitable ,as a Zambian politician qouted an old saying Give a man a fish you feed him for a day teach him how to fish feed him for a life time.In their case i think its correct Zimbabwe and South africa have a lot to learn still

I've heard Zambia, Mozambique, Angola and Nigeria is inviting the refuree white farmers from Zimbabwe to farm on their lands. It seems like a smart move to do so.

soutie · 08-14-2007, 07:40 AM

yeah that is mostly true,i know zambia and mozambique are shouting down with the imperialistic dogs but behind closed doors they are giving farmers land for next to nothing ,and smiling about it,i suppose they are thinking zimbzbwe lose zambia gains ,they have been thru this marxist and anticolonial speeches so they have been there done that and got the t-shirts ,i think a new dawn is beginning for countries like that ,so good luck to them

entropy · 08-14-2007, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soutie

yeah that is mostly true,i know zambia and mozambique are shouting down with the imperialistic dogs but behind closed doors they are giving farmers land for next to nothing ,and smiling about it,i suppose they are thinking zimbzbwe lose zambia gains ,they have been thru this marxist and anticolonial speeches so they have been there done that and got the t-shirts ,i think a new dawn is beginning for countries like that ,so good luck to them

They probably understood that shouting isn't good for anything. They've also seen that this "blame it on the white man" ideology doesn't work. Just too many examples against it.

I'm actually going to Zambia next summer. A friend of mine has family there, and we are going to stay close to Lusaka for a month. I've never seen Africa, so I'm curious. Afterwards we were planning to head towards South Africa through Namibia. Will be a great journey.

I wonder, how is it going with Namibia? I know that Botswana will be depopulated soon due to AIDS, and that then probably all kinds of refugees will move in and ruin it, but Namibia seems to me a quite rich and prosperous country by African standards.

Ray · 08-14-2007, 08:01 AM

Soutie,

Keep posting about Africa since some of us have no idea about the Continent. Reading your and Sapper's anecdotes, it gives us a totally new insight that is beyond the printed word.

My interest has gone up ever since I saw the film 'Blood Diamonds".

Ignorant that I am, could the conditions in Zimbabwe be as chaotic as what I saw in the film?

entropy · 08-14-2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

My interest has gone up ever since I saw the film 'Blood Diamonds".

You're not the only one, sir!

The movie, and the stories by soutie and sappersgt made me read about Africa.

soutie · 08-14-2007, 08:51 AM

last time i was in Nambibia was 1987

that was duting my military ,i have namib friends who have travelled the world and they have always gone back home,its a vast place very few people ,per sq kilometer ,if you have a chance go to etosha ,the desert is a beauty on its own ,when i think of it namibia is a wild beautifull desolate place ,i did,nt think that when i was doing my military,

soutie · 08-14-2007, 09:01 AM

Blood diamond is based on a true story ,the west calls them conflict diamonds ,there is meant to be a ban on them in the west ,but as you all know alot slips through the net ,i feel sorry for the african ,even though i am one myself ,albeit a white one ,the african has been abused for the past 400 years ,first by the white man then by their own people ,aka IDI AMIN MUGABE
look at RAWANDA and now what is happening in darfur and Somalia ,to me Africa will never be a peace if its not war its aids if its not aids its ethnic clensing ,do you know ,they say half of botswana are HIV positive My Brother who spent his better part of his youth fighting in civil wars in africa said AFRICA IS LIKE A SEXY MISTRESS IT CAN GIVE YOU SO MUCH PLEASURE,BUT LATER ON IT CAN GIVE YOU SO MUCH PAIN,NO ONE WILL UNDERSTAND THE AFRICAN LIKE AN AFRICAN ,SOMETIMES I DO NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY DO THINGS AND I WAS BORN THERE,

soutie · 08-14-2007, 09:03 AM

ray things in zimbabwe are very bad they say between 300o to 6000 zimbabweans are fleeing zimbabwe into south africa every day looking for jobs zimbabwe is at 80%unemployment so you can imagine a loaf of brea costs more than an average wage in Zimbabwe,

entropy · 08-14-2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soutie

Blood diamond is based on a true story ,the west calls them conflict diamonds ,there is meant to be a ban on them in the west ,but as you all know alot slips through the net ,i feel sorry for the african ,even though i am one myself ,albeit a white one ,the african has been abused for the past 400 years ,first by the white man then by their own people ,aka IDI AMIN MUGABE
look at RAWANDA and now what is happening in darfur and Somalia ,to me Africa will never be a peace if its not war its aids if its not aids its ethnic clensing ,do you know ,they say half of botswana are HIV positive My Brother who spent his better part of his youth fighting in civil wars in africa said AFRICA IS LIKE A SEXY MISTRESS IT CAN GIVE YOU SO MUCH PLEASURE,BUT LATER ON IT CAN GIVE YOU SO MUCH PAIN,NO ONE WILL UNDERSTAND THE AFRICAN LIKE AN AFRICAN ,SOMETIMES I DO NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY DO THINGS AND I WAS BORN THERE,

Where did your brother fight? Mercenary duty?

I wonder how things will go with South Africa - Botswana - Namibia. They seem wonderful countries, but they have enormous problems. The president of Namibia supports Mugabe, and land reforms are going on in Namibia as well (but on a smaller scale than Mugs' reforms). Botswana was a truly prosperous, European-style country with less corrution than in Portugal (still less corrupted than some EU countries) but AIDS is going to depopulate it. South Africa isn't heading the good way now with ANC, I think.

soutie · 08-14-2007, 09:45 AM

rumour has it that the ANC is split down the middle ,there are whispers that Madiba did not want Mbeki as the leader,because of his marxist beliefs ,in the ANC there are people who actually care about the future of their country not just of themselves mbeki is meant to be a womanising alcoholic which is nothing new to western politics ,there has also been rumours of government involment in the farm killings,as one might i black journalist put it why have,nt the wine farmers been touched ,not one as far as we know now has been murdered ,because Thabo Mbeki owns 40%of all wine exports that leave the country,Jay Naaidoo,used to be minister without portfolio,he owns a huge %of telkom ,the telecom industry,plus the biggest unoin in south africa Casatu has got huge stakes in the casino industry ,makes you think ,to me african politics means get into power keep it as long as possible by buisness and get extremely rich while doing it

08-13-2007, 14:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
astralis *Foreign Service* Moderator Lei Feng Protege Join Date: 08-23-05 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,484 Country:	i don't know what the writers of the document are on, but i suspect it's pretty strong. sanctions don't mean squat to a country when the economy is not even self-sufficient, let alone exporting. that's why sanctions are never very effective. in IR theory this is known as the paradox of the sanctions- they only work well if a country has a close, rich, trade with another; yet at the same time, that's also the scenario least likely to occur. __________________ Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present. -Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

08-13-2007, 20:13 PM	#4 (permalink)
entropy Senior Reader *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 03-19-07 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,628 Country:	It's the "blame it on the white man" syndrome in action. Mugabe is the real criminal. If someone threw a stone through your window, you blame the thrower, not the stone. Mugs throws UK sanction stones at his own people. ANC makes me think about apartheid without the negative feelings. I am by no means a racist, but the transfer from apartheid into democracy was too fast. As it was in the USSR, instant democratization of a totalitarian society. Fast transfers don't work. Apartheid should have been deconstructed gradually, as the US did with blacks' rights and China does with communism. Botha started a slow but working process. De Klerk just ruined it. __________________ If memory serves...

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08-14-2007, 05:41 AM	#5 (permalink)
soutie *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-05-07 Location: spain Posts: 415	african politics ,blame everyone else but themselves and the need to stay in power,why would the west want to recolonize zimbabwe ,they have more important issues to deal with,this just proves that Mbeki is in the same mold as Mugabe ,they where handed over full working economies which in turn have been destroyed through mis management ,when Madiba passes on i feel things will get bad for South Africa Mbeki is a marxist just like Mugabe we will just have to wait and see.Its a good thing countries like Mozambique and Zambia are trying to stand on their own feet,they have their civil wars and starvation,its taking time but they are coming right ,they are actually trying to do things for themselves Zambia and Mozambique and even NIgeria do not mind who farms their land as long as it feeds people and is profitable ,as a Zambian politician qouted an old saying Give a man a fish you feed him for a day teach him how to fish feed him for a life time.In their case i think its correct Zimbabwe and South africa have a lot to learn still

08-14-2007, 07:40 AM	#7 (permalink)
soutie *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-05-07 Location: spain Posts: 415	yeah that is mostly true,i know zambia and mozambique are shouting down with the imperialistic dogs but behind closed doors they are giving farmers land for next to nothing ,and smiling about it,i suppose they are thinking zimbzbwe lose zambia gains ,they have been thru this marxist and anticolonial speeches so they have been there done that and got the t-shirts ,i think a new dawn is beginning for countries like that ,so good luck to them

08-14-2007, 08:01 AM	#9 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,255 Country:	Soutie, Keep posting about Africa since some of us have no idea about the Continent. Reading your and Sapper's anecdotes, it gives us a totally new insight that is beyond the printed word. My interest has gone up ever since I saw the film 'Blood Diamonds". Ignorant that I am, could the conditions in Zimbabwe be as chaotic as what I saw in the film?

08-14-2007, 08:51 AM	#11 (permalink)
soutie *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-05-07 Location: spain Posts: 415	last time i was in Nambibia was 1987 that was duting my military ,i have namib friends who have travelled the world and they have always gone back home,its a vast place very few people ,per sq kilometer ,if you have a chance go to etosha ,the desert is a beauty on its own ,when i think of it namibia is a wild beautifull desolate place ,i did,nt think that when i was doing my military,

08-14-2007, 09:01 AM	#12 (permalink)
soutie *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-05-07 Location: spain Posts: 415	Blood diamond is based on a true story ,the west calls them conflict diamonds ,there is meant to be a ban on them in the west ,but as you all know alot slips through the net ,i feel sorry for the african ,even though i am one myself ,albeit a white one ,the african has been abused for the past 400 years ,first by the white man then by their own people ,aka IDI AMIN MUGABE look at RAWANDA and now what is happening in darfur and Somalia ,to me Africa will never be a peace if its not war its aids if its not aids its ethnic clensing ,do you know ,they say half of botswana are HIV positive My Brother who spent his better part of his youth fighting in civil wars in africa said AFRICA IS LIKE A SEXY MISTRESS IT CAN GIVE YOU SO MUCH PLEASURE,BUT LATER ON IT CAN GIVE YOU SO MUCH PAIN,NO ONE WILL UNDERSTAND THE AFRICAN LIKE AN AFRICAN ,SOMETIMES I DO NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY DO THINGS AND I WAS BORN THERE,

08-14-2007, 09:03 AM	#13 (permalink)
soutie *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-05-07 Location: spain Posts: 415	ray things in zimbabwe are very bad they say between 300o to 6000 zimbabweans are fleeing zimbabwe into south africa every day looking for jobs zimbabwe is at 80%unemployment so you can imagine a loaf of brea costs more than an average wage in Zimbabwe,

08-14-2007, 09:45 AM	#15 (permalink)
soutie *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-05-07 Location: spain Posts: 415	rumour has it that the ANC is split down the middle ,there are whispers that Madiba did not want Mbeki as the leader,because of his marxist beliefs ,in the ANC there are people who actually care about the future of their country not just of themselves mbeki is meant to be a womanising alcoholic which is nothing new to western politics ,there has also been rumours of government involment in the farm killings,as one might i black journalist put it why have,nt the wine farmers been touched ,not one as far as we know now has been murdered ,because Thabo Mbeki owns 40%of all wine exports that leave the country,Jay Naaidoo,used to be minister without portfolio,he owns a huge %of telkom ,the telecom industry,plus the biggest unoin in south africa Casatu has got huge stakes in the casino industry ,makes you think ,to me african politics means get into power keep it as long as possible by buisness and get extremely rich while doing it

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