Gio

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...1/wneth111.xml

Islamofacism..

Confed999

Pizza courier 'targeted' Amsterdam sex zone

10 December 2004

AMSTERDAM — Justice authorities arrested a Moroccan man last month after receiving a tip-off that Islamic extremists were allegedly planning an attack on the Red Light District in Amsterdam, it was reported on Friday.

The pizza-delivery courier allegedly conducted reconnaissance of the capital's prostitution zone while riding through the area during work hours on his scooter. He was arrested on 5 November. Newspaper De Telegraaf described him as a "radical Moroccan pizza courier".

The National Detectives Unit was alerted to the supposed attack plan by three anonymous emails, the first of which was received on 14 September. Emails dated 27

September and 11 October gave further details of the suspects and addresses.

The emails warned that "terrorists in Amsterdam East" were plotting an attack on the Wallen area in Amsterdam, De Telegraaf reported. Muslim extremists, the paper said, were allegedly furious at the lack of morals in the prostitution zone.

Justice authorities took the tips very seriously and arrested the pizza deliverer at the Nasr mosque in the Celebesstraat in Amsterdam East. The man has been identified as a 20-year-old Amsterdam resident of Moroccan descent, Bilal L., alias Abu Qataadah.

L. was allegedly in contact with Syrian Redouan al-Issa, the fugitive leader of the terror network Hofstadgroep (Main City Group). The Syrian was an illegal immigrant in the Netherlands and gave Koran lessons in the home of Mohammed B., the suspected murderer of filmmaker Theo van Gogh. B. is also a member of the Main City Group.


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__________________
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

Gio

Jesus, this is insane. This is far more then destablizing dutch society.

Confed999

I'm glad I decided the last trip there would really be the last, unless someone else pays for it. If it's free, it's for me!

ChrisF202

If the Muslim immigration to the Netherlands isent stopped or reduced; I bet that withen 10 years, there wont be a Netherlands. Same with France, Spain, Sweden (espically Malmo area), etc


In one school in Malmo, Sweden (according to FOX News), only something like 5 of 2,000 students are native born, non Muslim Swedes.

Lucien LaCroix

We have met the enemy...

...and he is us.

Immigration has both its strengths and weaknesses. The strengths embody a continuation of a culture and its most postive aspects, while adding newfound experiences. The weaknesses epitomize the seething bully/coward mentality of those who see their new home land as something that should be molded to their own culturally-transferred beliefs and loyalties--regardless of how corrupt or morally bankrupt they may be. The embrace the most basic of benefits--money and safety--while rejecting the whole culture concept that made these things possible.

This discussion goes far deeper than mere immigration. Like it or not, a good 80 percent of the world's population simply can't handle freedom. Either they don't know how to defend it or they can't tolerate someone in their midst having it in addition to themselves. And when these type of people move to other lands, it tends to pollute the purity of the belief systems of the country they settle in. Much of that variation is benign--but there are those who simply cannot let go of the culture that they walk away from. And that is where the problems begin.

So what is the solution? I can't really say. But I do know that we have to begin a more careful examination of those who desire to relocate. Such a process isn't just about searching for past criminal behavior. It is about the potential for tolerance and assimilation--a willingness to grow. And that is a very difficult thing to diagnose.

But unless we define the issue and implement a reasonable policy to safeguard our cultures, then we most certainly will have visited upon us an eventual social upheaval, either as the result of some sort of terrorist attack or a gradual takeover by those who want to turn our countries into a "New (insert country name emigrated from here)."

It's a very sensitive subject. But it's one that MUST be discussed.

__________________
"If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants."

dalem

Immigration is wonderful as long as the immigrants adapt to their new home. Failure of this seems to lead to the issues that some of Europe and the Netherlands are facing now.

Now of course, that's the nice "paper" answer. The reality is messier.

-dale

Rahul

It;s not about Muslims per se as it is about a policy that lets just about anyone come. There ought to be amendments to laws allowing spouses and relatives and family to come if one member of the family gains citizenship and so on. These laws I've heard are very thoroughly exploited.

I was in the Netherlands this past summer and I saw a bit of this "multi-cultural experiment." The Dutch I found to be very friendly people and I liked their country a lot, especially the smaller places taht I saw while doing a battlefield trip of Operation Market Garden but it seemed to me that people hadn't integrated into Dutch society as well as immigrants integrate into US society here in the US. Many spoke in their native tongues, many Muslim immigrants (women) wore the headscarf and I even saw a few with burkhas (this was in Den Haag). And from what I've read, it seems the Indonesian and African and Chinese immigrants assimilate fine but it is often the Muslim immigrants from other areas who don't do so. Our Dutch tour guides for that trip (it was a school trip) were rather angry about it as their attitude was that in the two-way street that is immigration, many of these Muslim immigrants hadn't been keeping their end of the bargain.

IMO, it isn't safeguarding cultures so much as keeping the obvious idiots out. Don't have a huge open immigration or guest worker policy, only accept those who are skilled or refugees. Basically, those who will make the most of opportunities afforded them in their new country and who will be happy about it because of that.

I saw some of these problems in France as well though not necessarily in Switzerland for some reason.

Lucien LaCroix, it isn't that a good 80% can't, its that complete political tolerance is impossible for all people. Democracy when done right however takes into account this defect of human nature (intolerance, ranging from intolerance of non-Muslims to intolerance of gays) and has checks and balances to prevent it from taking hold. Also, leaders and statesmen simply have to be prudent and realize that in this day and age not all who make their way to a new country will really want to become a part of that country. It must be discussed but the assertion that 80% of the world's people can't handle freedom is ridiculuous. All human beings have somethings they can't stand and there are bad eggs in any population. IMO, the Netherlands, in its multicultural experiemnt, took things too far in being too lenient with its immigration policy while a significant portion of the new immigrants for whatever reasons aren't assimilating into Dutch society like they should. Letting go of a culture isn't the case. Being able to tolerate more than one is what's at hand IMO.

ChrisF202, it wouldn't be so bad if they refined their immigration system and tried to push the integration of the new immigrants into mainstream society. How to do that though is a tough question. Affirmative action might help somehwat, however unfair it may be. Nicloas Sarkozy in Frace has proposed making all religious institutions state-funded to remove the influence of imported hate-inspiring imams. Other things that would help would be tighter immigration restrictions. Either way though, it's hard to tell what it will take. I'm just glad here in the US we don't have such problems.

__________________
Am out of town for a while and then have tons of work coming up at school. Will be back once that's all done.

Bluesman

Rahul is absolutely right: tolerance is the only thing that allows two or more belief systems to exist in any one place.

Islam is not noted for its tolerance. Its adherants are so absolutely convinced that they are right that they can make no allowances for anything but their belief system to exist. That pizza delivery guy - twenty years old, Muslim, and absolutely intolerant of something that has been going on in his new, adopted country for far longer than he has been alive. He cannot conceive that there is any other answer than to do God's will and wipe out all this sin.

Based on nothing but a rock-hard and inflexible faith, the wave of Muslim immigration that is swamping Europe cannot but change European culture, and frankly, I can't see Europe benefiting much from it. All of those Rennaissance battles that stopped Muslim armies from sweeping through Europe seems to have merely delayed the inevitable for a few centuries. And no country has ever reaped much long-term good from Islamic culture; quite the opposite, in fact, as the descent into holy fascism destroys progress and tolerance.

Europe will turn into another polyglot Third World sewer over time. They dare not stop immigration, as that is the only segment of their population that is growing, and they are needed to keep their bloated Ponzi schemes masquerading as social programs solvent for a few more years. But they had better start stopping this trend right now, even if it causes some pain. Europe itself is at stake.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

Lucien LaCroix

My 80% figure, while an admitted 'guestimate,' isn't "ridiculous."

Freedom isn't merely about tolerance. It's about the ability to see the truth--a truth that transcends national loyalty and ethnicity. Yes, sometimes it is about "bad eggs"--criminal who couldn't function even in their home country. But more often than not it is about those whose allegiance to something that can never fully let go of that clouds their judgment--regardless of whether or not they declare that they have let go of it.

Yes, there are bad eggs in every crop of immigrants. But the "bad egg" Muslims have made it a point to spit upon cultural norms and common decency in a way that imprints itself upon the everyone who is non-Muslim. You may find that disagreeable, but it's simply the way of the world. Until Muslims do something more than assert "We're not all bad!", then the type of crimes referenced in the article will continue to paint them all with the same brush.

And it will continue to make the headlines until the Muslim quest for truth and justice is as loud as the quest for Muslim revenge.

barrowaj

What pisses me off is just how hypocritical the muslims that carried out those attacks are. They criticize the US for attacking muslim countries and imposing our values on them. Then, they immigrate to the Netherlands, and attack people there because they have issues with the way they live. They are absolute hypocrits.

If you ask me the struggle that is really going on (even if it is completely subconscious) is simply the way that western economic superiority is encroaching on the traditional muslim way of life. Well, muslim countries wouldn't have developed at all if it weren't for the fact that they were sitting on top of huge stores of oil. In the future, when we no longer need muslim oil, these governments will collapse because they have no way to earn money to feed their people. This collapse will pave the way for economic development and political freedom.

Maybe a little simplified, but that's what this is about in my mind...

When I say "muslim" I really mean fundamentalist Islam, not the pacifist ones who are integrating themselves into the world.

Rahul

Lucien, you do realize that Indonesian immigrants to the Netherlands have integrated plenty well and that Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim country, right?

EDIT: Add in Malaysia, moderate Muslims around the world, and I doubt that figure of 80% is true. Even if you take all the Middle East Arabs, you've still go North Africans who on the whole aren't that bad with regards to tolerance, you've got Turks, you've got Iranians (despite their leadership, the citizenry isn't virulently Islamofascist like some might think), Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis, gulf Arabs from places like UAE that aren't s jihad-oriented, Muslims in Europe and N. America, and muslims in Africa. Chances are 80% of worldwide Muslims are probably less likely to care about Osama's jihad and more likely to care about making ends meet than planning a jihad.

Also, what is this "truth" you speak of? "that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights"? If so, then that involves tolerance, tolerance of these people being able to express their rights. When I say tolerance, I'm not being an apologist for those Dutch muslims who for some odd reason want to impose their culture on other Dutch but am pointing out what those Dutch (and many other EUropean) muslims lack. Without a certain degree of political tolerance, democracy can't work. Simple as that.

I don't find what you say disagreeable, I find it true, I've seen it with my own eyes. But Lucien, here in the US most all muslims integrate fine. Why they don't in certain parts of Europe makes one wonder. I agree the Muslims haven;t done as much introspection as they should which is why you get these people who want to trample on their fellow non-Muslim citizens rights. Still, even if they do embrace that "truth", they can just as easily turn around and come up with some moral argument for most all the things they do or advocate (except honor killings and stuff like that, i'm talking bans on alcohol, no pork, an end to red-light district type stuff, etc.). The thing is though, they ought to be going about it via a democratic process (such as the ballot box or petitions or what not), not stabbing a film-maker and organizing a raid on the red-light district. I guess we are in agreement but I still think tolerance is something important taht these European muslim communities that are a source of trouble in Holland lack. That lack of tolerance is at the root of this, though there are a few flaws perhaps in Europe's system and its looking the other way for the sake of "multi-culturalism" on such things as immigrants even after years of residence not learning a local language.

Lucien LaCroix

The fact is that Arab countries are the Islamic national versions of Mike Tyson.

The Arabs received the unexpected economic benefit of oil being discovered under their soil--coupled with the West's (particularly the United States') dependence upon that black gold. The problem is that the monetary gain garnered as a result of that discovery did not force Arab nations to grow--culturally, socially, or, even, personally. Hence, my comparison with Mike Tyson. The man earned millions of dollars in the boxing ring, yet still acts like an uncouthe barbarian outside the boxing ring. It's the reason why Arabs can erect oil revenue-funded towers of glass and steel while still forcing their women to walk around wearing tents. You simply cannot buy class, sophistication, or culture.

In Muslims, I see a race (ethnic, cultural, politically, and religous) that simply has not grown in four millenia--irrelevant of oil revenue-based revenues. They like the perks and priviledges that oil has provided their countries, but they can't deal with the international/technological dynamics that such a monetary gain has brought to their countries.

Look at the way their people react to a political crisis. They dance, yell, and scream in the streets while holding placards of 'exhalted' national/spiritual leaders whenever confronted by an international/spirtual 'crisis.' Forgive me if you will, but that strikes me as extremely immature (probably the reason why the Israelis kick the crap out of them every time they go toe to toe).

For Arabs it's all about posturing. No true achievement, so pretend that oil automatically makes one an equal.

It's all very, very sad--and childish.

Anon

"Rahul is absolutely right: tolerance is the only thing that allows two or more belief systems to exist in any one place."

Oh, i dunno...apathy works pretty good too.

ChrisF202

If only someone would tell that to the US politicians ....


As for the Muslims, nobody is making them not assimilate. They are choosing not to.