Religion And Secularism In Israel

Ray · 03-08-2007, 14:38 PM

Quote:

March 07, 2007

RELIGION AND SECULARISM IN ISRAEL

Unholy Conflict in the Holy Land

By Annette Grossbongardt

The majority of Israelis are secular Jews, but the religious Jews in the country wield enormous influence. David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, designed it that way, inadvertently blueprinting a conflict that has yet to be resolved.

Young Israeli women adore Zak Berkman. The attractive, 30year-old actor has appeared in popular TV series, sometimes as a crook, sometimes as a fighter pilot. Now teens can admire him in a new historical role. At the recently opened Herzl Museum in Jerusalem, the young star plays Theodor Herzl, the father of political Zionism. The operators hope that Berkman's mass appeal and a new multimedia exhibition will inspire enthusiasm about the country's founding father among the young.

Studies have shown that the country's schoolchildren know surprisingly little about Israel's origins, Zionism and its War of Independence. The Herzl Museum takes them back to the past - recreating the era of the man who conceived the state of Israel, but who died before it was proclaimed.

A journalist, Herzl dreamed of a secular state in which religion would have no influence whatsoever. "We shall keep our priests within the confines of their temples," he wrote in his visionary 1896 work, The Jewish State.

But David Ben-Gurion, who ultimately proclaimed the state of Israel 50 years later, ignored this advice. To attract devout Jews to the newly-founded country, the first premier included religious leaders alongside secular Jews in his government. Moreover, he granted rabbis a powerful role in society: a monopoly on performing marriages and divorces.

"Israel is still suffering from this birth defect, this lack of separation between state and religion," says Ari Rath, the former publisher and editor of the Jerusalem Post. Even today, secular Israelis have to be married by a rabbi, and those who don't want to have no choice but to head abroad. Many end up flying to nearby Cyprus.

The rabbis also control a sprawling inspection system that - for a fee - monitors compliance with dietary laws at kosher hotels and restaurants. Kosher food is mandatory at army and government cafeterias - despite the majority of Israelis being nonreligious.

For almost 60 years now, the secular and the religious have been at war over what defines a good Jew. Is it someone who follows God's commandments meticulously and adheres as far as conceivably possible to religious traditions? Or, alternatively, someone who serves the state of Israel, but almost never sets foot in a synagogue, and only wears the yarmulke - the skullcap mandatory for religious Jews - in exceptional circumstances? The clash of cultures over national identity is omnipresent in Israeli society, and there seems to be no consensus in sight.

"While radical secularists want to detach society from its traditional Jewish roots, radical traditionalists want to eradicate its modern, western values," says Aviezer Ravitzky, professor of Jewish philosophy at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. This unresolved tension also explains Israelis' inability to agree on a constitution 58 years into the country's history.

The orthodox groups believe that in Erez Israel, Judaism's heartland, they have finally found the true place to live in accordance with God's commandments.

In contrast, western, more individualistically minded Israelis feel severely constrained by religious strictures. They see freedom as one of the Jewish state's key achievements. They aspire to the kind of lifestyle people enjoy in industrial countries; for instance, being allowed to drive cars, eat in restaurants or go to the movies on Shabbat, the Jewish day of rest.

In fact, this is quite possible at many places in Israel, even in Jerusalem. Teddy Kollek, the legendary former mayor, successfully forged a compromise for the holy city, with rights accorded to both sides. The secularists are allowed to open a few cafés in their quarter on the Sabbath, while the religious can close specific streets to traffic in their part of the city. Even the ultra-orthodox mayor, Uri Lupolianski from the Torah Party, has been powerless to intervene. Nonetheless many secular families have opted to leave for the more cosmopolitan Tel Aviv or other places where religious Jews are scarce.

Many Israelis are livid about the repeated exceptions made for the religious contingent. Young ultra-orthodox Jews, for example, are exempted from military service if they devote their energies entirely to Talmudic studies. They have their own state-funded educational system. Only recently has the government begun an uphill battle to introduce subjects like English, mathematics, history, and even Hebrew - the national language - into these schools. Unlike other Israelis, most ultra-orthodox Jews only use Hebrew in explicitly religious contexts. To ensure that Hebrew is not treated disrespectfully, they speak Yiddish most of the time, a language that originally evolved among middle- and eastern-European Jews.

In deference to religious Jews, no public bus services run in Israel on the traditional day of rest, except in Arab areas; aircraft operated by El Al, the state airline, remain grounded. Because Jews are not allowed to eat anything leavened or fermented at Passover, in memory of the exodus from Egypt, foods containing grain - even beer or muesli - have to be cleared from the supermarket shelves every spring. Instead of white and brown bread, they sell matzo - an unleavened cracker.

The radical secular Shinui Party spent years campaigning against these religious dictates. In vain. In the last election, the party did not win a single seat.

Since the state of Israel was proclaimed, the large, secular parties - the social-democratic Labor Party and the national-conservative bloc - have dominated national politics. The religious groups have their own parties that often follow their rabbis' edicts rather than the principles of democracy. Together they comprise a good fifth of the parliament. In deference to the religious bloc, the plants in the flower beds outside the Knesset are even moved to special containers every seven years; according to the Torah, the Holy Land's pastures may not be tilled in fallow years.

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Increasingly, the religious parties are featuring as coalition partners in secular governments, often finding themselves in a position to tip the legislative balance one way or another. In return, they happily accept additional funds or special privileges for their constituents. But they have never set the national agenda or shaped Israel's foreign policy and its relations with the Palestinians. The religiously motivated settlers could only stake claims in the occupied territories because secular ruling parties favored colonization themselves.

Ben-Gurion, who was not religious himself, loved to challenge the religious delegates in Parliament with his knowledge of the Bible. He was wont to quote from Psalm 24: "Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? Those who have clean hands and pure hearts." After reciting this passage, he would turn to the Orthodox members of parliament and say with a smirk, "According to these criteria, you're no more religious than I or my party colleagues are!"

Like their first prime minister, the majority of secular Israelis regard religion as clearly one aspect of their culture. A large number consider themselves to be nonreligious, although they observe many traditional religious practices, such as fasting during Yom Kippur, the most important Jewish holiday, blessing bread and wine on Shabbat evening, or holding the traditional seder meal at the beginning of Passover.

"Religion is a part of the Israeli identity," says the historian and journalist Tom Segev, adding that almost everyone has some association with religion, even if it's only their son's circumcision eight days after birth.

With the birth of the state, a new and unique dimension of Jewish identity emerged, defining itself particularly through the Hebrew language, Israeli culture, strong national sentiment, and the experience of the Holocaust. The residents were drawn together by a need to establish their fledgling country and conflicts with hostile Arab neighbors.

But the dream of "Israel's founding fathers" - of forging a "new Jew" - has not come true, historian Tom Segev concludes. "Israelis have come to understand that they cannot simply consign 2,000 years of history to the past." Nor can they ignore their religious heritage, for the same reason.

Zionism too, a predominantly political and secular movement to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine, took recourse to religion. According to historian Dan Diner, "Even the early Zionists said that God promised us the Land of Israel." To this day, "the state's Zionist and biblical legitimations" remain connected. The nation defines itself through religious symbols: the flag with blue stripes evoking a prayer shawl, or the national coat of arms with the menorah, the seven-branched candelabra. "Through this association," says Diner, "the religious dimension is able to dominate the secular element time and time again."

As a result, otherwise secular politicians often invoke religious rhetoric, such as former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who has been in a coma for the past months. In a speech at the United Nations last year designed to cement Israel's right to exist, he talked of his forefather Abraham and the people of Israel's wanderings in the desert on the way to the Promised Land. Israel is an "open Bible," rhapsodized Sharon, citing the holy book as evidence of his people's "eternal and unimpeachable right" to Israel.

He had already poisoned his relationship with the nationalistic religious groups by withdrawing from the Gaza Strip in 2005. Unlike ultra-orthodox Israelis, this group of deeply religious Jews, many of whom are settlers in the occupied territories, perform military service, speak Hebrew rather than Yiddish, and are otherwise integrated into society. They felt betrayed by Sharon and their country because - in their eyes - the politicians were abandoning land promised by God to the Jews. They resisted relocation efforts, sometimes ferociously, which in turn sparked resentment among liberals and the left. The dispute further fueled antagonism between the two factions, underscoring the divisions within Israeli society.

"There is no place for a secular Israel in the settlers' dream world," criticized the writer Amos Oz, a spokesperson for the peace movement. Ultimately, he complained, the settlers wanted religion to be all-pervasive. "But we nonreligious Israelis also have a dream. We want to live in an enlightened, open and just country, not in some messianic, rabbinic monarchy, and not in the whole land of Israel. We came here to be a free people in our own land."

Never before has the divide been so great between Halakhah, Jewish religious law, and everyday life in Israel, say Avi Sagi and Jedidia Stern, professors of Jewish philosophy and law. In this "bitter conflict," they see a "widening chasm" between religious and secular Zionists. Israeli society is polarizing, becoming "on the one hand increasingly secular, but on the other extreme more religious," echoes Segev. But ultimately both sides find common ground - and reconcile their differences - in the ongoing conflicts with the Palestinians and Hezbollah, the historian adds.

So who "owns" Israel? Often judges are left to decide, as in the summer of 2006, when gay groups announced plans for a parade through Jerusalem. Ultra-orthodox organizations, along with Mayor Lupolianski and strict Muslims and Catholics, were all up in arms. The case was ultimately heard by the highest court in Jerusalem, which ruled that the parade could take place. A not insignificant victory - not only for homosexuals, but for secular Israelis demanding increased civil liberties as well.

The demographics, however, favor the religious groups. Birth statistics suggest that the number of ultra-orthodox Jews, who traditionally have large families, will double over the next 15 years, reaching 20 percent. As Juli Tamir - Israel's education secretary - recently projected, the country's elementary school classes could soon comprise three evenly balanced groups - one third secular, one third ultra-orthodox and one third Arab.

Today the unresolved issue of a national constitution is once again on the table - as, at long last, is the prospect of civil marriages. This time it is the predominantly secular Russian immigrant supporters of political hardliner Avigdor Lieberman who are upping the ante.

Israeli society needs to compromise and establish a new equilibrium, says Ravitzky. Writing a constitution is one step in this process. "But anyone believing this would enforce the separation of state and religion is wide of the mark," he warns, himself a religious Jew. "The bond between religion and state, Jewish heritage and Israeli identity, is indissoluble."

Religion and Secularism in Israel: Unholy Conflict in the Holy Land - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

While I have some insight into the Israeli Palestinian problem, I confess I do not know much about Jews, even though I have some relations who are Jews. Never asked them since it really did not matter.

However, this article caught my eye and I thought it would help me to understand the details that make up Jews.

I would like someone to explain so that I can understand the workings of Israel and the sectarian factors that play a role in its politics. It is important for me to know so, since it can give an insight as to the reasons why various peace efforts fail and the role the sects play vis a vis the sectarian groups of Palestine.

I believe there are many sects amongst Jews and hence they cannot be clubbed as a single whole. If so, what is the difference. I think Ira had explained but that seems to have vanished from my hard disk!

Now on to the article.

1. Who are these religious Jews in Israel who wield enormous influence and how did David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, designed it that way, inadvertently blueprinting a conflict that has yet to be resolved?

2. Did Ben Gurion actually reject the secularism as viewed by Herzl? If so, was it only to woo hardline Jews to Israel? I thought it was a important issue with all Jews to return to the Promised Land.

3. How did the rejection of Herzl's idea complicate the solution to the Israeli Palestine problem? Even if religion did not play a role in Israel, even so, it would still be a necessity to ensure that the state of Israel exists. The bottom line would still be that the Palestinians would not recognise Israel, no matter what it followed

4. What the big deal with the secular Jews (whatever that means) to fly out to get married. What is the problem of being married by a rabbi?

5. Why should kosher food be mandatory for non religious Jews? That goes against basic human rights and rights of an individual. And it is surprising that rabbis have to inspect and declare canteens fit for serving food.

6. What is the problem of this concept of a 'good Jew'. Why has one to be an orthodox and rigid to be a good Jew?

7. Does the Passover restrictions that the shops adhere to also applicable to non religious Jews and foreigners? If the shops do not store grains and leavened bread what happens to the non orthodix Jews and foreigners?

8. Why should ultra orthodox Jews be exempt from military service. The survival of Israel is every Jews business and if all do not contribute to its survival, then what is the good of being a Jew?

9. Does religion really play that important a role in Israel as the article makes it out be be?

bateman · 03-09-2007, 18:04 PM

Quote:

I would like someone to explain so that I can understand the workings of Israel and the sectarian factors that play a role in its politics. It is important for me to know so, since it can give an insight as to the reasons why various peace efforts fail and the role the sects play vis a vis the sectarian groups of Palestine.

First of all there is no such thing as a secular Jew. Judaism is a religion, Jews are people who practice some form of that religion. Some Jews reject this idea of what constitutes a Jew, they like to prattle on about Jews being a "Nation" or a "Peoples" (no one likes to use the word race anymore, and besides Jews are not a race as Hitler liked to insist), and this despite the fact that this "Nation" has no flag, no currency, no language and so on. The reason for this is obvious: Religions don't have territorial claims, "Nations" do.

The reason that the "peace process" keeps failing is mostly due to the fact that Zionist Jews like things just the way they are, thank you very much, and the way things are means that Israeli Arabs, and ethnically cleansed Palestinians can **** right off and live as second class semi-citizens or in some rotten refugee camp in the Lebanon or Syria while the Zionists carry on spending American money in their stinking apartheid gangster state.

So now you know.

**Ironduke** · 03-09-2007, 18:09 PM

Completely incorrect, your statement illustrates your total ignorance of knowledge about Judaism.

I'm not going to make any statements for or against the principle of a Jewish state in Israel, but the Jews are both a nation and a religion. Though widely dispersed by Roman efforts, they have always considered themselves to be a nation, and this tenet is an integral part of their religion.

Christianity and Islam are univeralist religions, i.e., they claim to be the religion for everyman. Judaism has its origins as a national religion, and is not universalist. Furthermore, Judaism has always placed a strong emphasis on secular endeavors, embracing worldly accomplishments, whereas Christianity and Islam place a strong emphasis on accepting suffering in this life for a perfect afterlife.

You are viewing Judaism in the same light as Christianity and Islam. True, they all ultimately share many common origins and are monotheistic, but the tribal/national origins of Judaism clearly distinguishes it from the other two.

bateman · 03-09-2007, 18:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

Completely incorrect, your statement illustrates your total ignorance of knowledge about Judaism.

I'm not going to make any statements for or against the principle of a Jewish state in Israel, but the Jews are both a nation and a religion. Though widely dispersed by Roman efforts, they have always considered themselves to be a nation, and this tenet is an integral part of their religion.

Christianity and Islam are univeralist religions, i.e., they claim to be the religion for everyman. Judaism has its origins as a national religion, and is not universalist. Furthermore, Judaism has always placed a strong emphasis on secular endeavors, embracing worldly accomplishments, whereas Christianity and Islam place a strong emphasis on accepting suffering in this life for a perfect afterlife.

You are viewing Judaism in the same light as Christianity and Islam. True, they all ultimately share many common origins and are monotheistic, but the tribal/national origins of Judaism clearly distinguishes it from the other two.

So because "they", whoever "they" are, consider themselves a "Nation", that means that they actually are one? Ok, I'm a bug-eyed monster from Mars......because I said so. Look, I took issue with the term "Secular Jew" because it's a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron. It implicitly accepts the notion that Jews are anything other than people who practice a religion, Judaism. Common tribal origin has nothing to do with being a Nation, or belonging to one. For example, the English are a Nation. There are lots of Blacks and Asians who are part of the English Nation. Origins are not relevant and if you think this has anything to do with Nationhood then you're a racist. Zionists place a lot of emphasis on what they call "easily traceable common heritage", code for race, and allocate privileges in Israel on that basis. Which is why I said they practice Apartheid.

Bigfella · 03-09-2007, 19:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

Completely incorrect, your statement illustrates your total ignorance of knowledge about Judaism.

I'm not going to make any statements for or against the principle of a Jewish state in Israel, but the Jews are both a nation and a religion. Though widely dispersed by Roman efforts, they have always considered themselves to be a nation, and this tenet is an integral part of their religion.

Christianity and Islam are univeralist religions, i.e., they claim to be the religion for everyman. Judaism has its origins as a national religion, and is not universalist. Furthermore, Judaism has always placed a strong emphasis on secular endeavors, embracing worldly accomplishments, whereas Christianity and Islam place a strong emphasis on accepting suffering in this life for a perfect afterlife.

You are viewing Judaism in the same light as Christianity and Islam. True, they all ultimately share many common origins and are monotheistic, but the tribal/national origins of Judaism clearly distinguishes it from the other two.

Thank you Ironduke, you saved me the trouble. An inauspicious first post for our correspondent. Hope he improves.

The best term I have ever heard to describe Jews was 'a people'. This was proferred by Abba Eban, a prominent Israeli politician & diplomant of the 60s & 70s. He was trying to make the point that Judaism is more than simply a religion, but that to use the term 'nation' risks confusion, as the term is usually employed to describe a discrete political/territorial entity. He could probably have used 'tribe' (a term I have heard a number of Jews use in an offhand/semi-humorous fashion), but this has overtones of primitivism - thus Africans have tribes, Europeans ethnicities.

The key fact here is that you can be born a Jew. if your mother was a jew, so are you. Even if you then adopt another religion, you are still a jew. My parents were practising christians when I was born. By the time I reached school age they were not. I am not a christian now. Had my mother been jewish I would still be jewish, no matter what my beliefs.

In one of those bizarre ironies of history the Nazis actually succeded in widening the potential pool of those who self-identified as jews. By using the bogus notion of biological race as a means of classification, the Nazis classified as jews many people who would not have self-identified as jews or have been identified as jews by the broader jewish community. This has meant that there are many people with jewish heritage on their father's line who feel the right to claim a jewish identity. I am not sure if this group is recognised as jewish by the State of Israel or not.

Judaism is much more than a religion.

bateman · 03-09-2007, 19:10 PM

Quote:

Even if you then adopt another religion, you are still a jew.

OMG. Talking of ignorance, you are so ****ing wrong you couldn't be more wrong. As far as the Israeli Supreme Court is concerned this is absolutely not the case, which means you know nothing and are just making things up as you go along in the hope no one will notice this total and complete LIE.

A Jew remains a Jew in the case he becomes an athiest. Athiesm is not a religion. If a Jew converts to another faith, he ceases to be regarded as a Jew by the State of Israel, and loses his "right" of return also. I can link you to several cases in the Israeli courts which prove this. Conversely, if say a Guatemalan Indian converts to Judaism, he automatically gains the "right" to return. So how are we going to define "People" or "Nation" or any of the other popular terms employed to describe Jews? This is a "Nation" with no flag, no currency, no language, no President, and a Nation you can be booted out of if you change your religion.

Are you having a laugh, or what?

bateman · 03-09-2007, 19:19 PM

Who is a Jew?

Three famous cases tested the Law of Return and a Jew’s right to immediate citizenship. The first example involved Brother Daniel (born Oswald Rufeisen), a Jew who converted to Christianity during the Holocaust and had become a Carmelite Monk. During his youth, Rufeisen was active in a Zionist youth movement and fled to Vilna, Lithuania at the start of World War II. There he worked as a slave laborer and escaped to Mir where he worked for the police as a translator. Rufeisen took advantage of his position and smuggled arms to his Jewish friends and helped drive the police out from Mir before it was liquidated, saving nearly 300 Jews. Rufeisen hid in the forest and later a convent, where he decided to convert to Christianity. In 1962, Rufeisen, now Brother Daniel, applied to immigrate to Israel and, after being denied, he appealed to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled that despite the fact he was born to a Jewish mother, he had since converted and should not be recognized as a Jew by the State of Israel.

Get your facts straight before you start slagging off a poster for an "inauspicious" start.

bateman · 03-09-2007, 19:37 PM

So here's just how wierd this is..........

Let's say you got some guy who was born into a Jewish family that had always been Jewish. Somewhere along the line the guy converts to Christianity and becomes a Carmelite monk. He applies to become an Israeli citizen under the right of return laws. He's turned down because he's not a Jew. He has all the Jew creds, he worships the same god, he's got the easily traceable common historical identity that Zionists I have previously debated with parrot like they're pasting it from some script.

He's not a Jew. Not according to the Israeli Supreme Courts.

Let's say some Guatamalan converts to Judaism and becomes an enthusiastic Jew and "returns" to Israel. Somewhere along the line he loses his faith and becomes an athiest.

He's more of a Jew than the first guy. In fact the first guy isn't a Jew at all by comparison.

Anybody have an opinion? See, the only way this makes any sense at all is if, as I have suggested, Jews are just a faith. And even then it doesn't make any sense because the Guatamalan should cease to be viewed as a Jew when he loses his faith. So why do Jewish Zionists and their philosemitic apologists insist that they are a "Nation"?

**Ironduke** · 03-09-2007, 19:57 PM

Bateman,

Watch it. You're a guest in my house. Don't p-ss on my rug.

What secular institutions in the state of Israel and Jewish religious institutions consider a Jew are ultimately separate.

People are free to self-identify as whatever they please. This doesn't mean it's going to hold water in the society they are a part of.

The definition of a nation, as commonly accepted, is a large body of people associated with a particular territory. That is all that's needed to qualify as a nation. Jews meet all of the criteria to qualify being defined as a "nation".

The legitimacy of the Israeli state, the Israeli state's definition of what a Jew is, and various definitions of what a Jew is by Jewish religious institutions are separate arguments. Be careful not to confuse them.

As far as being secular and a religious adherent... for Protestantism, refer to the Reformation. For Catholicism, refer to the Second Vatican Council. Judaism has always possessed a notion of a secular worldview.

bateman · 03-10-2007, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Watch it. You're a guest in my house. Don't p-ss on my rug.

What?

Are you a mod?

Are you an Admin?

Are you, gulp, the owner of this site?

If you are, your attitude to free speech sucks and plz get on with banning me now cos' I have lots more to say and you won't like any of it.

If you're not, then you're some deluded little Hitler with a psychopathology oh-so common to these kind of boards.

Quote:

People are free to self-identify as whatever they please. This doesn't mean it's going to hold water in the society they are a part of.

What does this have to do with anything? The issue is not what an individual chooses to identify him/herself as, the issue is what the Israeli Supreme Court, the highest authority of the self-proclaimed JEWISH STATE thinks about the notion that a Jew is still a Jew if he converts to another faith, and I demonstrated that "Bigfella" was talking out of his ass.

Your nonsense about tribes and peoples and so on is basically code for race, and I demonstrated that if you use this criteria you are both mistaken and a racist.

highsea · 03-10-2007, 04:45 AM

Bateman- you ain't doin so well.

nice knowin' ya...lol

bateman · 03-10-2007, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

Bateman- you ain't doin so well.

nice knowin' ya...lol

I'm so sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Perhaps you don't actually mean anything, perhaps you just want to show solidarity with your buddies. That wouldn't suprise me in the least, the average U.S Infantryman has an IQ to match his boot size.

gunnut · 03-10-2007, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bateman

What?

Are you an Admin?

Why...yes he is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bateman

If you are, your attitude to free speech sucks and plz get on with banning me now cos' I have lots more to say and you won't like any of it.

Sigh...you liberal hippie socialist commie tree hugging global warming cultists are all the same. You have no idea what "free speech" is. Free speech means the government can't harass you for criticizing the government. A private institution can tell you to shut the hell up any time it wants to. Learn the laws before you regurgitate left wing propaganda from moveon.org.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bateman

If you're not, then you're some deluded little Hitler with a psychopathology oh-so common to these kind of boards.

Truly a tolerant liberal. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a little Hitler with psychological problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bateman

What does this have to do with anything? The issue is not what an individual chooses to identify him/herself as, the issue is what the Israeli Supreme Court, the highest authority of the self-proclaimed JEWISH STATE thinks about the notion that a Jew is still a Jew if he converts to another faith, and I demonstrated that "Bigfella" was talking out of his ass.

Your nonsense about tribes and peoples and so on is basically code for race, and I demonstrated that if you use this criteria you are both mistaken and a racist.

Why do you people hate Jews so much? What have they done to you? They must have done something to you. I don't hate the Jews because I can't think of anything they've done to me. I don't hate the Koreans because they haven't done anything to me. I don't hate the Australians because they haven't done anything to me.

Tell me, why do you hate them so much? If you can't give some concrete examples, then I guess you're just a petty little racist bigot. Maybe you should consider joining the Klan. I hear they hate the Jews too.

Ray · 03-10-2007, 07:33 AM

Bateman,

The issue is not what you are trying to expound.

Since you wish to project yourself as an expert, could you please answer the issues I have asked for clarification?

You have totally gone off a tangent.

I am sure you can discuss the issue without giving vent to bile.

Bigfella · 03-10-2007, 09:31 AM

“Sigh...you liberal hippie socialist commie tree hugging global warming cultists are all the same.”

Steady on gunnut, by your standards I would qualify as a hippie socialist tree hugging global warming cultist, and I think this little troll is more full of it than a septic tank.

As for our soon to be exiled troll, best to get your story straight before you go charging off on this one friend:

“Judaism is a religion, Jews are people who practice some form of that religion.”
- Bateman

“A Jew remains a Jew in the case he becomes an athiest.”
-Bateman

Well, it took all of about 2 posts for you to totally reject your own claim about what constitutes a jew. Well done, that may be a world record.

As for your post from the courts in Israel, just because the orthodox have managed to strongarm them into narrowing their definition of a jew for the purposes of Israeli citizenship doesn’t mean that a Christian who was born a jew is n longer a jew. The same groups want laws that mean that only someone converted by an orthodox rabbi can become a jew for the purposes of Israeli citizenship. Note the key phrase here. Hope your Guatemalan knows the difference between reform, conservative & orthodox.

A few handy references on who is a jew:

Judaism 101: Who Is a Jew?

About Judaism, Jewish People and Israel

History of conversion from Judaism to Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

03-09-2007, 18:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ironduke Burgomaster Join Date: 08-02-03 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 6,859 Country:	Completely incorrect, your statement illustrates your total ignorance of knowledge about Judaism. I'm not going to make any statements for or against the principle of a Jewish state in Israel, but the Jews are both a nation and a religion. Though widely dispersed by Roman efforts, they have always considered themselves to be a nation, and this tenet is an integral part of their religion. Christianity and Islam are univeralist religions, i.e., they claim to be the religion for everyman. Judaism has its origins as a national religion, and is not universalist. Furthermore, Judaism has always placed a strong emphasis on secular endeavors, embracing worldly accomplishments, whereas Christianity and Islam place a strong emphasis on accepting suffering in this life for a perfect afterlife. You are viewing Judaism in the same light as Christianity and Islam. True, they all ultimately share many common origins and are monotheistic, but the tribal/national origins of Judaism clearly distinguishes it from the other two. __________________ The Buck Stops Here

03-10-2007, 04:45 AM	#11 (permalink)
highsea *Defense Professional* Join Date: 12-10-04 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,530	Bateman- you ain't doin so well. nice knowin' ya...lol __________________ My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

03-10-2007, 07:33 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,213 Country:	Bateman, The issue is not what you are trying to expound. Since you wish to project yourself as an expert, could you please answer the issues I have asked for clarification? You have totally gone off a tangent. I am sure you can discuss the issue without giving vent to bile. Last edited by Ray : 03-10-2007 at 07:36 AM.

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03-09-2007, 19:19 PM	#7 (permalink)
bateman Banished Join Date: 03-09-07 Posts: 14	Who is a Jew? Three famous cases tested the Law of Return and a Jew’s right to immediate citizenship. The first example involved Brother Daniel (born Oswald Rufeisen), a Jew who converted to Christianity during the Holocaust and had become a Carmelite Monk. During his youth, Rufeisen was active in a Zionist youth movement and fled to Vilna, Lithuania at the start of World War II. There he worked as a slave laborer and escaped to Mir where he worked for the police as a translator. Rufeisen took advantage of his position and smuggled arms to his Jewish friends and helped drive the police out from Mir before it was liquidated, saving nearly 300 Jews. Rufeisen hid in the forest and later a convent, where he decided to convert to Christianity. In 1962, Rufeisen, now Brother Daniel, applied to immigrate to Israel and, after being denied, he appealed to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled that despite the fact he was born to a Jewish mother, he had since converted and should not be recognized as a Jew by the State of Israel. Get your facts straight before you start slagging off a poster for an "inauspicious" start.

03-09-2007, 19:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
bateman Banished Join Date: 03-09-07 Posts: 14	So here's just how wierd this is.......... Let's say you got some guy who was born into a Jewish family that had always been Jewish. Somewhere along the line the guy converts to Christianity and becomes a Carmelite monk. He applies to become an Israeli citizen under the right of return laws. He's turned down because he's not a Jew. He has all the Jew creds, he worships the same god, he's got the easily traceable common historical identity that Zionists I have previously debated with parrot like they're pasting it from some script. He's not a Jew. Not according to the Israeli Supreme Courts. Let's say some Guatamalan converts to Judaism and becomes an enthusiastic Jew and "returns" to Israel. Somewhere along the line he loses his faith and becomes an athiest. He's more of a Jew than the first guy. In fact the first guy isn't a Jew at all by comparison. Anybody have an opinion? See, the only way this makes any sense at all is if, as I have suggested, Jews are just a faith. And even then it doesn't make any sense because the Guatamalan should cease to be viewed as a Jew when he loses his faith. So why do Jewish Zionists and their philosemitic apologists insist that they are a "Nation"?

03-09-2007, 19:57 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ironduke Burgomaster Join Date: 08-02-03 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 6,859 Country:	Bateman, Watch it. You're a guest in my house. Don't p-ss on my rug. What secular institutions in the state of Israel and Jewish religious institutions consider a Jew are ultimately separate. People are free to self-identify as whatever they please. This doesn't mean it's going to hold water in the society they are a part of. The definition of a nation, as commonly accepted, is a large body of people associated with a particular territory. That is all that's needed to qualify as a nation. Jews meet all of the criteria to qualify being defined as a "nation". The legitimacy of the Israeli state, the Israeli state's definition of what a Jew is, and various definitions of what a Jew is by Jewish religious institutions are separate arguments. Be careful not to confuse them. As far as being secular and a religious adherent... for Protestantism, refer to the Reformation. For Catholicism, refer to the Second Vatican Council. Judaism has always possessed a notion of a secular worldview.

03-10-2007, 09:31 AM	#15 (permalink)
Bigfella *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-12-07 Location: Melbourne Posts: 888 Country:	“Sigh...you liberal hippie socialist commie tree hugging global warming cultists are all the same.” Steady on gunnut, by your standards I would qualify as a hippie socialist tree hugging global warming cultist, and I think this little troll is more full of it than a septic tank. As for our soon to be exiled troll, best to get your story straight before you go charging off on this one friend: “Judaism is a religion, Jews are people who practice some form of that religion.” - Bateman “A Jew remains a Jew in the case he becomes an athiest.” -Bateman Well, it took all of about 2 posts for you to totally reject your own claim about what constitutes a jew. Well done, that may be a world record. As for your post from the courts in Israel, just because the orthodox have managed to strongarm them into narrowing their definition of a jew for the purposes of Israeli citizenship doesn’t mean that a Christian who was born a jew is n longer a jew. The same groups want laws that mean that only someone converted by an orthodox rabbi can become a jew for the purposes of Israeli citizenship. Note the key phrase here. Hope your Guatemalan knows the difference between reform, conservative & orthodox. A few handy references on who is a jew: Judaism 101: Who Is a Jew? About Judaism, Jewish People and Israel History of conversion from Judaism to Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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