Ray

Just for my knowledge, Astralis.

What language do they speak?

Hoklo?

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

astralis

ray,

yup, hoklo (although i usually call it taiwanese, a more direct translation of "tai-yu").

people in southern and central taiwan (especially the rural areas) speak taiwanese. this is especially true of the older population, whose usual order of language-learning was Japanese, Taiwanese, and then Mandarin.

however, most people these days view taiwanese as something of an informal language, to be used around friends and family. mandarin is used for most events, especially formal ones. interestingly enough, many of the young people in taiwan have only a limited knowledge of taiwanese, as for a while the use of taiwanese was looked down upon (it used to be banned under chiang kai-shek). however, having said that, the vast majority of the people in taiwan have a working knowledge of taiwanese.

these days, taiwanese is gaining something of a "cool" factor again, and thus radio stations and TV shows will inevitably throw in a few phrases of taiwanese here or there- just as they used to do (and still do) with english.

a tad inconvenient for me, someone who understands taiwanese but speaks it with a horrible accent! if i go down south, and order food, or hail a taxi-cab in mandarin, i get more and more funny looks!

__________________
Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Ray

Thanks.

I feel real bad that I lost my notes on China.

It had such a host of info.

I find China fascinating and such a riddle!

Ray

icecho,

What do you have to say on the issue, apart from the pigs, since it will be interesting to hear a view of someone who is close to the events....at least closer than me.

It maybe the internal matter of China but on this forum everything that is discussed is an internal matter of one country or the other.

Have you some insight into the issue that will help us understand it better?

Astralis,

I am surprised that China can go so far on PC.

Obviously, it means that either the Chinese are doing it to appease the internal Moslems because the internal issues of the Uighurs are getting too much to control or maybe they are planning to enter into the Middle East in a big way and so this is being done to show how tolerant the Chinese are of Islamic sentiments etc.

The Chinese have always ensured that cultural niceties are kept high on the agenda of a 'target' nation where they make inroads into.


By Chinese, I mean Communist China.

astralis

ray,

i'm not so sure about that. interestingly, i was discussing this the other day with some of my friends and colleagues at the CECC (congressional executive commission on china). one of their duties over there is to monitor chinese newsreports and chinese political journals, and they report that the uighur problem is actually not as bad as it was a mere decade ago. certainly, with the US turning a blind eye to much of the doings of the uighurs after 9/11, china has had more of a free hand to do as it wishes.

it looks to be a somewhat concerted attempt on part of the CCP to try for the mailed fist in a velvet glove. in tibet, the CCP has come up with the Tibet Autonomous Region Implementing Measures, which outline fairly draconian laws vis-a-vis what type of religious gatherings are allowed, the design and planning of temples, etc. however, this is seen as an IMPROVEMENT over the old days, as it is codifying into law something which had once been at the random discretion of the authorities!

Ray

Astralis,

You are a Congressman?

Wow!

Do keep us abreast with the happening with the Uighurs and the Tibetans.

Dalai Lama has practically been neutralised by China I believe.

astralis

ray,

no, no, NOT a congressman! what a horrible thing to wish somebody on

political analyst. most of the chaps over at the CECC are not politically appointed, save the chair (congressman there...and they just got a new one appointed two days ago or so, representative sandy levin) and a few of the chair's own assistants (whom don't show up at the office).

you are right about the dalai lama- he is all but completely neutralized as a political leader.

however, for the tibetans, they are increasingly finding that the CCP is surprisingly amenable to small-scale reform: for example, a while back, a group of tibetans were protesting the blatant favoritism shown by the TAR administration for han Chinese when they were hiring administrators (something like 100 spots were open, and 98 went to Han Chinese). the tibetans protested, and not surprisingly the authorities cracked down and detained the protest leaders. however, more surprisingly, they opened another 70 positions, all reserved for tibetans, and fired the guy who was in charge of the process to begin with...

Ray

You are real lucky to be in the US.

I wish such sort of things were there in India too.

Stan I think is a pageboy or an assistant to some Senator and he is just out of school or so I think.

You chaps are really very fortunate.

Zeng

Ray sir,

China has been doing something like that for many years. It is mainly trying to appease the internal Moslems. Of cause, if we can appease internal Moslems, we will get a good image in the rest of the Islamic world. Several years ago, someone published a book in China that mentioned some life style of Moslems in a non-respectable way. I forgot the name of the book and didn’t know the contents of the book. Moslems in many part of the China started to protest, put on strike and even attacked Han Chinese. Some cities in western China were even put under martial law for a short while. Chinese government on one hand immediately banned that book and punished the author and publisher, on another hand punished those who attacked Han Chinese, which calmed tension down very soon.

Also, in almost every government division, school and company, if it has cafeteria, it will have a separated section for Moslems in China. I think that it is required by law, although Moslems only constitute 2~3% of the Chinese population.

I feel that Han Chinese people are very sensitive to the minorities and their religions at least among the educated people. As a Han Chinese, if I travel on a train talking with strangers, I feel very conformable to make harmless jokes on Han Chinese, Mao, Confucius, Buddhism, Christian, Jew or even the communist party and current leaders. But I don’t feel conformable to make jokes on any Chinese minorities and their religions, especially not on Moslems and Islam even if the joke is harmless.

In China, Buddhism and Christian are mainly the religions for Han Chinese and Jews in China have almost been totally assimilated by Han Chinese. I think that there are only 200 some Chinese claim themselves to be Jews in China today. I am not even sure whether China recognizes them as Jews, a new minority today. But their museum has become a tourist attraction in Kaifeng city, Henan province. However, the assimilation of ancient Jews into Han Chinese since Song dynasty (AD 960-1279) is an interesting social phenomenon that has been studied by some social researchers and historians because Jews are the toughest people on earth to be assimilated. Before China’s reform started from 1978, the food and meat are scarce and distributed relatively evenly among the ordinary people. In the toughest time, each person can get only around one lb meat or something in one month. For the Moslems, they got lamb meat distributed. Because China did not recognize Jews, some of them claimed to be Moslems at that time to get distributed lamb meat. You see, in China, even the toughest rivals can eliminate their cleavage. It seems that it is hard for Israel to recognize Chinese Jews to be Jews, because the orthodox Jews follow mother line. But in China, they have been assimilated by Han Chinese tradition and followed father line.

The comments toward Moslems and Islam on this forum from some Indians, Americans and others are really considered to be offensive to Moslems in China. I don’t think that we can say those things in China.

The coming year starting from 02/18/2007 is Chinese golden pig year, the most auspicious year in every 60 years. It is a good example that Han and other non-Moslem Chinese show respect to the Moslems by not showing and mention pig on the television. It is an attitude thing and it makes perfect common sense if we make efforts to respect them, they will pay the respect back. I wonder if this logic works for Indians and Americans. I am not sure about Indians. At least, I think that it is hard for Americans to change their attitude. Also, I feel that many members on this forum are pretty much anti-China, I think that any logic from China will be looked as bad one.

Another very interesting thing well known in Xinjiang is that if you ask time to a Han Chinese, he will tell you the Beijing time that is the official time in China, but if you ask time to a local Uyghur, he will probably tell you the Xinjiang time that is two hours ahead of Beijing time. They got a little bit sentiment here.

__________________
I am here for exchanging opinions.

Zeng

astralis sir,

I think that your friend and colleagues at the CECC are doing good job and collecting correcting information not like the Western Medias and those self-claimed human right watch-dogs. As a mainland Chinese, I can say that the situation in Xinjiang is improving and that is not Chinese government propaganda.

A decade ago, Han Chinese people were warned by the government for not traveling to Southern Xinjiang without joining a group because the local Uyghur people were hostile to Han Chinese. Quite a number of them were supporting separatist movement of “East Turkistan” that was originated from 2 short lived self-claimed “independent state” in 1930s and 1940s.

As the slow opening of Chinese religious policy and especially the economic development, the Han Chinese vs. Uyghur people relation was improved significantly. The booming tourism becomes the major income source for the Uyghur people in Southern Xinjiang area that is on the South path of the ancient Silk Road, where different ancient cultures and religions met together. Today, Han Chinese people are welcome there to spend money. Local Uyghur people hate the extremists that block the local tourism and economic development. The support to those extremists is getting less and less. When people get a decent life, they hardly want to fight.

Also, Uyghur people, like all 55 minorities in China enjoy privilege over Han Chinese on college application. The one child family policy was only imposed on Han Chinese but not on the minorities. If one of the parents is a minority, their children can claim to be minority to enjoy the privilege. They can claim to be Han Chinese too. But as far as I know, in reality, most of them claim to be minority for the benefit of being a minority. It indicates that given the choice people want to be minority in China. Some suppression stories are really far fetched. Of cause, the minority elites would not be happy to this kind of arrangement that weakens their minority identities. But in any countries, the minority will be assimilated to certain degree by the majority unless you want to be American Indians who stay in their reservation land and drift off from the modernization process.

The Tibetans are not very aggressive probably because their Tibetan Buddhism practiced by the ordinary Tibetans is not aggressive although the Tibetan Buddhism practiced by the elite Tibetan Lamas is very brutal. In 1950, it was documented that the elite Tibetan Lamas practiced their highest Tibetan Buddhism tricks in order to defeat PLA’s advancing into Tibet. During that practice, 64 Tibetans were sacrificed and their bodies and bloods were taken as gifts to their gods for help.

Anyway, there were hardly problems for Han Chinese to travel in the Tibetan region except for very short period of time in 1959 during Tibetan rebelling (uprising if you like to call it). Today, if you go to a Tibetan home, you may see pictures of both Mao and Dalai Lama and Tibetans are very friendly to Han Chinese. Basically, Tibetans respect power, strongman, variety of gods and ghosts. Dalai Lama was their highest god (living Buddha) on earth. But Mao was even stronger to drive Dalai Lama out, so Mao became their god too. A very interesting thing about Tibetan Buddhism is that it is hard to distinguish between gods and ghosts, between virtue and reality, between good and bad, which fascinate me a lot. Both gods and ghosts can do good things and bad things. The worst of them can do the best thing and the best of them can do the worst thing. Their strongest gods or ghosts can be their biggest enemy originally. I think that Mao may fit into that category for some Tibetans. Tibetan Buddhism is really an x-dimensional religion.

Dalai Lama has announced that he doesn’t want an independent Tibet but he wants a true autonomous “Grand Tibet” of the size of more than 1/5 of the China with less than 0.5% of the Chinese population. His true autonomous Tibet will be pretty much a monk state governed by monks. Dalai Lama’s grand Tibet is also overlapping with the “East Turkistan” that claims around the same size of the land. If both “Grand Tibet” and “East Turkistan” get independence, China will loss more than 40% of the land, and “Grand Tibet” and “East Turkistan” will fight with each other for land disputes. They may even fight with other countries as well because both have lands occupied by China’s neighboring countries. So, be careful in supporting their independence. You will get endless fights waiting for you.

In Dalai Lama’s “Grand Tibet”, Han Chinese was already the majority hundred years before PRC was born. No Han Chinese people want to live in his monk state that hates railway and all modernizations. Besides monks, there are not many Tibetans on Dalai Lama’s side either. Although Dalai Lama has zero bargain power, Chinese government still started to negotiate with him after Deng Xiaoping took power and even invited his brother, another living Buddha to visit Tibet several times. But Dalai Lama just can not distinguish between virtue and reality. He always misunderstands the foreign spotlight he enjoyed oversea to be the reality back in Tibet. If he really cares about his Tibetan followers, he should forget the foreign spotlight he enjoyed and come back before he dies. I am sure that China can give him a very high symbolic position staying in Beijing and China can do something according to his requests for his Tibetan followers. This is totally negotiatable. But if he is obsessed with foreign Nobel winner spotlight and continues to do those anti-China things around the world, I think that China will wait his death and select another Dalai Lama based on traditional Tibetan ritual. Then, he wasted any possibility for him to leave a legend of did something for his followers in Tibet before he dies.

icecho

Minnan (Hokkien-Taiwanese)
most of Taiwanese spoken live FuJian province inCHina....
and what is more
Minnan=Chinese
because they both use Chinese character,Minnan just a dialect.
In china there are many dialect....

Ray

Zeng,

An interesting commentary.

Before Independence, people used to keep the photos of the King Emperor as also the photo of Mahatma Gandhi. One was to show 'loyalty' so that the govt machinery did not create problems and the other one was based on belief!

Yes, money corrupts. It is the ideal weapon to ruin the moral worth of a civilisation. The Roman Empire is but an example.

India is going through the phase now.

I would not know about Mainland China or about the autonomous regions of China.

I would not be surprised that the Dalai Lama would have lost his credibility amongst those now in Tibet.

I am not being difficult, but why are the Tibetan still fleeing Tibet?

There was this case (which was also discussed here on WAB) where the Chinese border guards had shot and killed some Tibetan trying to flee Tibet.

Ray

China bans images, mention of pigs on TV ads

That is what China is doing, but in Taiwan as per the Pakistani newspaper Pigs are in the news.

Two pigs ‘tie the knot’ in Taiwan

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Pigs are auspicious to the Chinese and Taiwan is not getting PC or squeamish about it.

Icecho,

Are you a Taiwanese?

Zeng

Reasons that Tibetans fleeting Tibet

China is a poor country based on GDP per capital. According to UN data, China has around 85 million people live under 1$ per day. Even Han Chinese are still fleeting China to look for a better life through legal or illegal ways.

Economically, Tibet is the poorest region in China . Some Tibetans want to find a better life somewhere else.

Today, transportation to Tibet becomes easily available to everyone. Many poor and un-educated Han Chinese pour into Tibet to look for a better life as migrating workers. Those people normally are not that sensitive and respectful to the local culture and religion. Han Chinese have experienced all kind capitalism competitions but many Tibetan are still naive traditional religious people that have no experience of brutal capitalism competitions. They are in awkward situation when compete with Han Chinese for business.

Han Chinese work hard and spend time and money on making money and education of kids. Tibetans spend significant of time and money on religious events. For the poor Tibetans, it is not surprise at all to donate half of their hard earned money to temples.

When we visit Tibet , we take car, train or air plane to Lhasa . Some Tibetans walk there. It is not because they don't have the transportation; it is because they want to show their respect to god. Chinese government is more than happy to provide rides for Tibetan pilgrims to Lhasa to make propaganda and is doing so periodically. But not all of them want to take the rides.

Some wouldn't even walk on their feet, they walk on their kneel all the way hundred of miles to Lhasa even today. That normally takes years to get there. Some even walk their kneel all the way back. Then, he will become the most respectable Tibetan in his community and become the example for other young Tibetans to follow. I would even like to show respect to someone did something like that but what is the contribution of those guys to themselves and to their community.

There are very strange Tibetan Buddhism practices. When a young monk went into a monastery, he put himself in a cave and built a permanent wall to close the cave only leave a small hole that people can leave him meal through the small hole. He wouldn't even speak with the person who sends meal to him and wouldn't see the person who sends meal to him. By the day, the meal is not taken, and then people know the monk inside has gone to the heaven. I remembered that some of those monks lived in the caves for more than 50 years before die. Their names become the names of the god or ghost and immortalized.

Story like these sounds unbelievable to the modern human beings, but existing in Tibet . Although those stories don't apply to most of the Tibetans but are respected and honored by Tibetans. Tibetans, especially the rural Tibetans will tell you the greatest deeds of those monks.

During Mao's time, all these activities are prohibited. Even many temples were destroyed mainly by Tibetan red guards but influenced by Maoism. Today, Tibetans started these things again. Anyone visit Lhasa can see some of them walk on keel to the temples everyday.

According to the statistics, the poorest regions in Tibet and Tibetan living region are those regions that have the highest "Temple to people ratio" and highest "monks to non-monks ratio".

I didn't even go to some of the Tibet life and religion rituals yet. I am worried that the moderators of the forum may feel my comments fall into attacking other's life style and religion. If you are interested in Tibet culture and religion, I can recommend some English materials written by Westerners. They talked about the heaver side of the Tibetan life. Also, I can recommend some Chinese materials written by Chinese. They are talking about the lighter (happy) side of the Tibetan life. Chinese authors are not allowed to write too much heaver side of the Tibetan life. Some Chinese did and were punished by government in order not to offend Tibetans. I think everyone on this forum know the shocking ritual of Tibetans treating their dead. In China, it is illegal to write and photograph this ritual.

As educated Han Chinese, when we see and hear the heaver side of the Tibetan life, we got very complicated feelings, shock, unbelievable, sad, and so sad even become respectable. I really love those rural Tibetans; they are the sweetest people on the earth. They are so devoted to their faith and believe the goodness will come out from those unbelievable deeds. I even feel the admiration. I never believed anything in that kind of faith.

But the un-educated Han Chinese wouldn't have that kid of feelings. They would like to take all the advantages that they can take. Also, they wouldn't respect Tibetans life style and religion. Ask the migrating Han Chinese workers in Tibet, they may tell you that Tibetans are silly to do those useless things.

It is really unfair to the Tibetans. I acknowledge that Han Chinese have those greed and racist people who discriminate Tibetans. But these kinds of discriminations are not government actions. They are individual actions.

On the other hand, from Dharamsala India , Dalai Lama tells Tibetans that they are doing the greatest things in the world and come here; you can do these things all your life without disturbed and discriminated. Some Tibetans will go there.

Anyway, shooting Tibetan when they leave is a terrible thing to do. If it really happened, it should never happen, especially should never happen again. The border guarder who did that should be punished if he was not doing self-defense.

If you only visit Lhasa and talk to urban Tibetans, especially those who can speak Chinese or even English, then, there is not much difference between them and Han Chinese. You will meet all kind of good or bad Tibetans. They are quite capable for brutal capitalism competition. That is really the cost of the modernization. Then, Dalai Lama got the example of modernization being bad.

Here is the breathtaking beauty of Mount Kailas or Kang Rinpoche (Precious Jewel of Snows) in Tibetan or ¸ÚÈʲ¨Æë in Chinese in the eye of an Indian artist. It is the holly mountain for Tibetans. I think that it is also a holly mountain for Indians. Today, it becomes a holly mountain for Han Chinese too. When we visit there, we walk around the holly mountain along a large outer cycle one turn and a small inner cycle one turn. Some Tibetans walk around the holly mountain turns by turns for months. But anyone can feel the holiness of the mountain when you get there and start to believe the most unbelievable stories from Tibetans.

Kailas: Manasarovar & Tibet

If you can read Chinese, please read:

Éñɽ¸ÚÈʲ¨Æë

Ray

Zeng,

Interesting account.


As far as holing up by monks, the power of solitude you must try. Initially, it is difficult, but it sort of grows on you and you enjoy it and it brings great peace.

When I was in Ladakh, while I did not practice solitude, the whole area was so still and quiet that it was overpowering and very nerve wracking. After a few months I got used to the deadly quiet.

When I came home on leave, the hustle bustle of Calcutta made me very uncomfortable and even irritable and I yearned for desolate quiet of Ladakh!

It is a funny phenomenon, but it is very real!

Communism or no communism, the Chinese at heart are very religious. That is what I see of our Chinese here in Calcutta.