Islamic teacher cuts students ears - Page 2

Ray · 09-22-2004, 14:01 PM

Bigotry is in most religions.

However, these relgions are more flexible in interpretation and rejection by individuals.

That scope apparently is rather limited in Islam.

Yake this unqiue case in India.

A Moslem soldier, Sapper Arif, was captured during the Kargil War. He has returned to India. His wife waited and then with the Kazi (Moslem Priest)'s blessing the wife of the soldier remarried. She hs stayed with the first husband the soldier for 7 days. She is pregnant by the second husband. Now, the relgious heads say that (as per a TV debate where all of parties were present and the Religious Heads) as per the Sharia, she has to return to the first husband. The girl (wife) said that if it is as per the Shariat, then so be it.

What do you make of it?

tarek · 09-22-2004, 14:08 PM

Indians are subject to the laws in India (I suppose) - Is Shari'ah the law in India?? If it is not the law in India, the question of it's application is mute, that this soldier may think it applies to him and his personal affairs, is a matter for the civil courts to decide.

ChrisF202 · 09-22-2004, 15:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarek

Indians are subject to the laws in India (I suppose) - Is Shari'ah the law in India?? If it is not the law in India, the question of it's application is mute, that this soldier may think it applies to him and his personal affairs, is a matter for the civil courts to decide.

I belive India follows a British style judicial system. Maybe 1 or 2 states have Shira law (like in Nigeria, though I belive Shira became national law there).

I know that in the US, all states except Louisana have the British 'innocent until proven guilty in a court of law', Louisana uses the French (and Mexican) 'guilty until proven innocent in a court of law'.

Ray · 09-22-2004, 15:34 PM

Yes there is a law code in India.

But, just not to offend Moslems, there is a law that rules Moslems' Personal Life i.e. The Moslem Personal Law. That ensures that the Moslems live the life as dictated by their Religious Heads.

The Shah Bano case will explain.

Brief of the Case

Shah Bano, a 62 year old Muslim woman and mother of five from Indore, Madhya Pradesh, was divorced by her husband in 1978. The Muslim personal law allows the husband to do this without his wife’s consent: the husband just needs to utter the word Talaaq (pronounced as "talaakh") thrice before witnesses, and the divorce is done.

Shah Bano, because she didn't have any means to support herself and her children, approached the courts for securing maintenance from her husband. When the case reached the Supreme Court, seven years had elapsed. The Supreme Court invoked Article 125, which applies to everybody regardless of caste, creed, or religion. It ruled that Shah Bano be given maintenance (similar to alimony) money.

All hell broke lose then. The Muslim Body in India felt threatened at what they perceived was an encroachment of the Muslim Personal Law, and protested loudly at the judgement. They formed an organization known as the All India Muslim Personal Law Board and took out agitations in large numbers.

The Indian Government's Reaction

The Rajiv Gandhi government panicked at this reaction of the Muslims. This is because, the Congress government, traditionally relied on the Muslim Vote Bank and had given in to their every demand, small or large. Rajiv Gandhi was advised to agree to the All India Muslim Personal Law Board's demands.

Rajiv Gandhi accordingly passed an act in the Parliament, which in effect nullified the Supreme Court's judgement in the Shah Bano case. This act upheld the Muslim Personal Law and writ as excerpted below:
Every application by a divorced woman under section 125… of the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1973, pending before a magistrate on the commencement of this Act shall, notwithstanding anything contained in that code… be disposed of by such magistrate in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

Consequences

The Shah Bano case generated tremendous heat in India and saw the fall of Rajiv Gandhi's government. His political career, and with it, the Congress party's fortunes declined rapidly. A destructive precedent was set by the case which has enabled fundamentalist muslims to exert their pressure on government and judicial decisions of a so called secular state. It also caused alarm amongst many Indians including some Moslems who had always seen an India based on equality and have often termed this type of religious appeasement practiced by the Congress, as "pseudo-secular" and anti-national.

mostlymad · 09-22-2004, 15:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

But, just not to offend Moslems, there is a law that rules Moslems' Personal Life i.e. The Moslem Personal Law. That ensures that the Moslems live the life as dictated by their Religious Heads.

... A destructive precedent was set by the case which has enabled fundamentalist muslims to exert their pressure on government and judicial decisions of a so called secular state. It also caused alarm amongst many Indians including some Moslems who had always seen an India based on equality and have often termed this type of religious appeasement practiced by the Congress, as "pseudo-secular" and anti-national.

there are rumours of this type of law-within-a-law in Canada, lately, talk allowing Muslims their own divorce laws and not being subject to Canadian ones. Interesting to read how those not in favour of such preferential laws reacted in India. There is fear the same could happen here.

Canadian law is supposed to protect all equally, all races, religions, cultures, ages, sexes, and everyone within the family equally. There is concern that rights we have fought for and gained will be lost in attempts to appear tolerant. Sort of a reversal of laws, which makes no sense, a taking away of rights, rather than improving on them.

mostlymad · 09-22-2004, 15:52 PM

Ray, thanks for that story. Specific examples help.

Ray · 09-22-2004, 16:24 PM

Hey that is NOT a story.

It is a case that is even today debated.

The Act of Parliament is there now to protect the Moslem way of life which may contravene the other Acts that is applicable for others!

Some Moslems were furious including a Cabinet Minister, Md Arif Khan, who resigned in protest to the enactment of this Act.

tarek · 09-22-2004, 18:38 PM

"Yes there is a law code in India.

But, just not to offend Moslems, there is a law that rules Moslems' Personal Life i.e. The Moslem Personal Law. That ensures that the Moslems live the life as dictated by their Religious Heads."

That is outrageous - it's a outrage that "seperate but equal" is alive and well in india -- besides it is a gaurantee that 2nd class status, a institutionalized "******dom" would exist in India and continue to be a lever of applying pressure on the sovereignty and territorial integrity of India.

Sooner or later, Indians will have to decide which is supreme, the universal law of the land or the "reservation" law which with Muslims can be kept ignorant and back ward.

Jay · 09-22-2004, 19:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarek

That is outrageous - it's a outrage that "seperate but equal" is alive and well in india -- besides it is a gaurantee that 2nd class status, a institutionalized "******dom" would exist in India and continue to be a lever of applying pressure on the sovereignty and territorial integrity of India.

Actually it isnt that outrageous. Criminal law is the same for all so as the majority of civil laws. The difference is, for instance, muslims have a seperate way of divorcing their wives, which cannot be extended to the rest of us. Like wise we have certain laws for hindu joint families.

Quote:

Sooner or later, Indians will have to decide which is supreme, the universal law of the land or the "reservation" law which with Muslims can be kept ignorant and back ward.

Its the Muslim Board (wakf) that wants the muslim personal law. Previous govt promised to repeal this and had a debate on a universal code of law, but the muslim board shot it down. And how does this makes muslims ignorant and backward??

This is a very detailed analysis by the very own British (India's justice system is based on the English)..
http://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/cases/India.htm

Quote:

Then, in 1985, came the famous case of a 75 year-old lady, Shah Bano, who had been thrown out of her comfortable home after more than 40 years of marriage and had been left without adequate provision for her old age.29 Remarriage being out of the question, she would have to turn to her
children or natal family for support. As so often, these were comfortable middle-class people fighting over a principle. The Supreme Court of India decided, quite in line with earlier cases, that the ex-husband would have to provide the lady adequate maintenance until her last breath. The Court, composed of five Hindu judges, had also looked at the Qur’an and had found no contradiction between its admonishment to be generous to a divorced wife (as in Qur'an II.240- 242) and the provisions of modern, secular Indian law. Because of some rather unwise comments about the need for a uniform civil code in India (and thus the end of Muslim personal law), this decision caused riots and much uproar. The government, evidently concerned to undo the
damage, very quickly passed a new Act for Indian Muslims alone, apparently -- so everyonethought - - taking them out of the protective ambit of the 1973 Criminal Procedure Code. While this violated the policy directive of legal uniformity, about which everyone concerned raised a big storm, nobody seems to have bothered to read the Act carefully. It is called the Muslim
Women (Protection of Rights on Divorce) Act, 1986 and it does exactly what its name says, it protects the rights of Muslim divorced wives. But in which way?

In the politicised confusions which ensued, the Act was vigorously attacked as a law which takes away important rights from divorced Muslim wives. However, this is nonsense, as a study of the case law under the 1986 Act clearly shows.30 This Act re-constituted precisely the liberal Qur’anic interpretation of the Indian Supreme Court and thus reiterates the position of the Shah Bano case: A divorced Muslim wife’s first port of call for support is still the ex-husband. It is only when he is unable to support the woman that she has a claim on her own heirs and relatives and, if those are indigent, too, on the various Waqf Boards which exist in India.31

Again, thus, the modern South Asian Muslim law relies on the woman to make a claim, and it will obviously help the claimant if she has a good cause. The main point, from the state’s perspective, of course, is that the state itself does not figure at all among those who are legally or morally liable for the financial support of Muslim ex-wives. During the past few years, these
significant Indian legal developments have had a spin-off in Bangladesh which must be of prime interest to scholars of Islamic law. As indicated, that country faces the huge social problem of desertion without proper divorce. In 1995, without a word of reference to Indian law, the High Court of Dhaka decided that under Muslim law, as found in the Qur’an, a husband who wishes to abandon his wife is responsible for her maintenance beyond the narrow time of the iddat, especially if there are children involved.32 This case confirms that Muslim law in South Asia is capable of self-expiatory reforms by reference to the shari’a, in this case the Qur’an itself rather than the less positive jurists’ opinions on the matter. But this important case has not even been noticed outside Bangladesh, because it decided in favour of women, and in Europe we only appear to hear bad news about decisions that go against women and their interests. A more balanced assessment seems now possible.

In stark contrast, Pakistani law still takes the ijma-focused juristic view that Muslim divorced wives are only entitled to maintenance during the iddat period. In real life, as fieldwork quickly confirms, even that is very often not given. There seems to be a social contract in Pakistani society that a woman’s natal family will provide for her in the eventuality of a divorce. Looking at the Bangladeshi example, however, it appears that the door on reforms is not closed, since this would not in fact go against the spirit of the shari’a and, equally important, does not necessitate explicit adoption of Western or Hindu legal models. Both in the field of public law and family law, therefore, modern South Asian Muslim law increasingly emphasises the historic justice-orientation of Islamic law and uses it to back up recent law reforms with significant positive impact on women and other structurally
disadvantaged sections of the community. There is as yet no coherence in such reforms and, as always, daily implementation of such laws remains a problem, but the conceptual avenues for modern South Asian law reforms which do not violate the spirit of Islamic law have been sketched out and are actually used in daily legal practice in these countries.

http://www.art.man.ac.uk/CASAS/pdfpa...thasianlaw.pdf

tarek · 09-22-2004, 20:05 PM

Oh boy... U again.

OK, it not outrageous, Happy? Ok, "reservation" Laws do not keep populations ignorant and backward by excluding them from the majority. My bad

Jay · 09-22-2004, 20:07 PM

may be if you can only read who/what makes us to have them and follow them

Oh well, cant expect that from you, can I

tarek · 09-22-2004, 20:13 PM

Yes it is curious, that these "muslims" make you do these things to them, curiously, they don't seem to exercise this power they have over you, in realms that would suggest that they are a full part of India. In fact such incredible sensibility to define Indians by their religion, will eventually come back to haunt indians.

Jay · 09-22-2004, 23:41 PM

I dont know whether you really read are just replying for the heck of it.

Muslim wakf board is made up of maulvis and they oversee all the mosques and madrassas in India. Any change to the muslim law's should be approved by this wakf board and so far wakf board has not favorbly responded to repeal these acts, nor to create an uniform civil code.

Actually so far we havent seen any major problems, but the system is severely strained. It can only be changed/modifed case by case, or else we will just see another religious riot.

tarek · 09-23-2004, 00:00 AM

Why is there a seperate law for Muslims in India?

Jay · 09-23-2004, 01:57 AM

Read this, it says how/why the muslim/hindu/parsi/christian law evolved.

http://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/cases/India.htm

09-22-2004, 14:01 PM	#16 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,254 Country:	Bigotry is in most religions. However, these relgions are more flexible in interpretation and rejection by individuals. That scope apparently is rather limited in Islam. Yake this unqiue case in India. A Moslem soldier, Sapper Arif, was captured during the Kargil War. He has returned to India. His wife waited and then with the Kazi (Moslem Priest)'s blessing the wife of the soldier remarried. She hs stayed with the first husband the soldier for 7 days. She is pregnant by the second husband. Now, the relgious heads say that (as per a TV debate where all of parties were present and the Religious Heads) as per the Sharia, she has to return to the first husband. The girl (wife) said that if it is as per the Shariat, then so be it. What do you make of it? __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA

09-22-2004, 20:07 PM	#26 (permalink)
Jay Tamizhanban *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-06-03 Location: Edison, NJ Posts: 6,492 Country:	may be if you can only read who/what makes us to have them and follow them Oh well, cant expect that from you, can I Last edited by Jay : 09-22-2004 at 20:10 PM.

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09-22-2004, 14:08 PM	#17 (permalink)
tarek *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-06-03 Posts: 996	Indians are subject to the laws in India (I suppose) - Is Shari'ah the law in India?? If it is not the law in India, the question of it's application is mute, that this soldier may think it applies to him and his personal affairs, is a matter for the civil courts to decide.

09-22-2004, 15:34 PM	#19 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,254 Country:	Yes there is a law code in India. But, just not to offend Moslems, there is a law that rules Moslems' Personal Life i.e. The Moslem Personal Law. That ensures that the Moslems live the life as dictated by their Religious Heads. The Shah Bano case will explain. Brief of the Case Shah Bano, a 62 year old Muslim woman and mother of five from Indore, Madhya Pradesh, was divorced by her husband in 1978. The Muslim personal law allows the husband to do this without his wife’s consent: the husband just needs to utter the word Talaaq (pronounced as "talaakh") thrice before witnesses, and the divorce is done. Shah Bano, because she didn't have any means to support herself and her children, approached the courts for securing maintenance from her husband. When the case reached the Supreme Court, seven years had elapsed. The Supreme Court invoked Article 125, which applies to everybody regardless of caste, creed, or religion. It ruled that Shah Bano be given maintenance (similar to alimony) money. All hell broke lose then. The Muslim Body in India felt threatened at what they perceived was an encroachment of the Muslim Personal Law, and protested loudly at the judgement. They formed an organization known as the All India Muslim Personal Law Board and took out agitations in large numbers. The Indian Government's Reaction The Rajiv Gandhi government panicked at this reaction of the Muslims. This is because, the Congress government, traditionally relied on the Muslim Vote Bank and had given in to their every demand, small or large. Rajiv Gandhi was advised to agree to the All India Muslim Personal Law Board's demands. Rajiv Gandhi accordingly passed an act in the Parliament, which in effect nullified the Supreme Court's judgement in the Shah Bano case. This act upheld the Muslim Personal Law and writ as excerpted below: Every application by a divorced woman under section 125… of the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1973, pending before a magistrate on the commencement of this Act shall, notwithstanding anything contained in that code… be disposed of by such magistrate in accordance with the provisions of this Act. Consequences The Shah Bano case generated tremendous heat in India and saw the fall of Rajiv Gandhi's government. His political career, and with it, the Congress party's fortunes declined rapidly. A destructive precedent was set by the case which has enabled fundamentalist muslims to exert their pressure on government and judicial decisions of a so called secular state. It also caused alarm amongst many Indians including some Moslems who had always seen an India based on equality and have often termed this type of religious appeasement practiced by the Congress, as "pseudo-secular" and anti-national.

09-22-2004, 15:52 PM	#21 (permalink)
mostlymad Contributor Join Date: 09-10-04 Posts: 561	Ray, thanks for that story. Specific examples help.

09-22-2004, 16:24 PM	#22 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,254 Country:	Hey that is NOT a story. It is a case that is even today debated. The Act of Parliament is there now to protect the Moslem way of life which may contravene the other Acts that is applicable for others! Some Moslems were furious including a Cabinet Minister, Md Arif Khan, who resigned in protest to the enactment of this Act.

09-22-2004, 18:38 PM	#23 (permalink)
tarek *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-06-03 Posts: 996	"Yes there is a law code in India. But, just not to offend Moslems, there is a law that rules Moslems' Personal Life i.e. The Moslem Personal Law. That ensures that the Moslems live the life as dictated by their Religious Heads." That is outrageous - it's a outrage that "seperate but equal" is alive and well in india -- besides it is a gaurantee that 2nd class status, a institutionalized "******dom" would exist in India and continue to be a lever of applying pressure on the sovereignty and territorial integrity of India. Sooner or later, Indians will have to decide which is supreme, the universal law of the land or the "reservation" law which with Muslims can be kept ignorant and back ward.

09-22-2004, 20:05 PM	#25 (permalink)
tarek *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-06-03 Posts: 996	Oh boy... U again. OK, it not outrageous, Happy? Ok, "reservation" Laws do not keep populations ignorant and backward by excluding them from the majority. My bad

09-22-2004, 20:13 PM	#27 (permalink)
tarek *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-06-03 Posts: 996	Yes it is curious, that these "muslims" make you do these things to them, curiously, they don't seem to exercise this power they have over you, in realms that would suggest that they are a full part of India. In fact such incredible sensibility to define Indians by their religion, will eventually come back to haunt indians.

09-22-2004, 23:41 PM	#28 (permalink)
Jay Tamizhanban *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-06-03 Location: Edison, NJ Posts: 6,492 Country:	I dont know whether you really read are just replying for the heck of it. Muslim wakf board is made up of maulvis and they oversee all the mosques and madrassas in India. Any change to the muslim law's should be approved by this wakf board and so far wakf board has not favorbly responded to repeal these acts, nor to create an uniform civil code. Actually so far we havent seen any major problems, but the system is severely strained. It can only be changed/modifed case by case, or else we will just see another religious riot.

09-23-2004, 00:00 AM	#29 (permalink)
tarek *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-06-03 Posts: 996	Why is there a seperate law for Muslims in India?

09-23-2004, 01:57 AM	#30 (permalink)
Jay Tamizhanban *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-06-03 Location: Edison, NJ Posts: 6,492 Country:	Read this, it says how/why the muslim/hindu/parsi/christian law evolved. http://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/cases/India.htm

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