ELECTION 2008 | The Pub | The Field Mess | The Staff College | Bookmark WAB



Go Back   World Affairs Board > General Forums > Current Affairs
Register FAQ WAB RSS Feed Forum GuidelinesMembers List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Greetings, and welcome to the World Affairs Board!

The World Affairs Board is one of the premier forums for the discussion of the pressing geopolitical issues of our time. Topics include foreign & defense policy, international security, military developments, weapons proliferation, terrorism, international strategic affairs, and politics. Our membership includes many from military, defense industry, and government backgrounds with expert knowledge on a wide range of topics. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so why not register a World Affairs Board account and join our community today?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-03-2004, 20:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
Leader
Ubi dubium ibi libertas
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: 09-04-03
Location: Boston, MA, USPRA
Posts: 5,124
Send a message via AIM to Leader Send a message via MSN to Leader
Post Immigration Reform Versus Reality

Immigration Reform Versus Reality

Eight simple facts about immigration
by Judson Cox
02/01/04

President Bush’s immigration reform plan, and the response to it, has shown that political and journalistic elites inhabit a fantasyland. They view Mexican aliens as either dispossessed but noble poor, or faceless masses of workers. The elite seldom have contact with illegals, short of the occasional domestic servant.

I am from North Carolina, a state filled with tobacco and Christmas tree farms, textile mills and processing plants for chickens and hogs. Outside of every city in North Carolina are mobile home parks, filled with Mexican nationals. I went to school with their children. I have been served by illegals in Mexican restaurants, and served illegals in stores where I have worked. I have worked with illegals, and although my Spanish was as bad as their English, we joked, talked about our families and got the job done. I have known illegals as individuals.

I have reached the following conclusions:

1) Most illegal Mexican immigrants have no desire to become citizens. They speak of Mexico as home, talk about the families they left behind, and of their desire to return. They send most of their money to family members in Mexico, so that they can return to better conditions.

2) Most illegals are honest, hard working, family oriented people; many are not. Mexicans are as likely as any ethnic group to commit criminal acts, and illegals have already broken the law in coming here. The willingness to break the law may be why 25% of the 8 to 12 million illegal immigrants in America fill our prisons, charged with non-immigration related crimes.

3) The premise that illegals pay payroll taxes and are owed Social Security and Medicare benefits is ridiculous. It is illegal to hire an illegal alien; most are paid “under the table.” Those who obtain fraudulent documents commit another crime by doing so.

4) There is no need for a “living wage.” Illegal immigrants usually work for less than minimum wage. They make enough money to live on, and enough to send to their families. Taxes, minimum wage laws and unions artificially increase American wages, resulting in higher than necessary unemployment levels and incentivising illegal immigration. When illegals “steal” American jobs, it is the fault of American policy.

5) The problems of Mexico are a result of corrupt government. So long as the dispossessed of Mexico can work in America, the Mexican government lacks incentive for reform. The export of Mexico’s poor releases political pressure, while the import of their wages props up the Mexican economy.

6) Many Mexicans come here for free medical care, free education and other social programs that are non-existent or lacking in Mexico. The humanitarian impulse is to provide for their needs. However, to enable the government of Mexico to resist reform, and to encourage dangerous journeys across uninhabitable regions, often at the mercies of unscrupulous smugglers, is immoral.

7) Most illegals just seek work, but if they can sneak in, so can terrorists. If we refuse to track and deport those here illegally, we make ourselves the willing targets of terrorist attacks.

8) Refusing to enforce immigration laws undermines our legal system. The threat of prosecution deters crime. Each of us has daydreamed of committing a crime, whether of robbing a bank, or disposing of a particularly annoying fellow citizen. It is not merely morality that prevents most of us from taking such actions, because even the worst acts can be rationalized; it is the threat of prosecution. Without that threat, our legal system collapses; laws may be obeyed or disobeyed as one sees fit. In “Keep Pot Illegal,” Jerry Rubin (a communist revolutionary) argued that when kids smoke pot and experience neither criminal prosecution nor immediate harm, they lose respect for America’s laws and institutions, leading them to further crime. He argued that such actions could undermine our nation to the point of collapse. If an enemy of America makes such a premise, shouldn’t it give us pause?

Rather than willfully failing to enforce our immigration laws, the laws should be changed if need be. If our laws are to be changed, and immigration so reformed, Congress should vote on such legislation. Let us see how many lawmakers are willing to answer to their constituencies for legalizing illegal immigration, and how many are willing to face the voters when another Jose Padilla waltzes across an unguarded section of the border with a dirty bomb. Neither our nation, nor Mexican immigrants, deserves to be subject to rash decisions, social experiments or political jury-rigging.

___________________________

Judson Cox is a political columnist from the mountains of North Carolina. He is quickly gaining recognition as one of the most popular and influential voices of his generation. As a college student, and Director of Communication for the Foundation for Conservative American Values, he has a unique perspective on matters of politics, economics and culture. With a humor akin to P.J. O'Rourke and Dave Barry, and a plain spoken southern wisdom that matches Charlie Daniels, his confrontational style lies somewhere between Ann Coulter and Merle Haggard.

For permission to reprint this article, please contact us at editor@commonconservative.com

http://www.commonconservative.com/guest3.html
__________________
"Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have."
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

NEVER FORGET
Leader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2004, 20:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
Confed999
Staff Emeritus
 
Confed999's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,681
Country:
Send a message via AIM to Confed999
I agree with allmost everything said. It seems sad to me that there is even a debate about illegals.
__________________
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
Confed999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2004, 16:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
ChrisF202
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: 08-12-03
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 2,593
Country:
Send a message via AIM to ChrisF202
Quote:
Originally posted by Confed999
I agree with allmost everything said. It seems sad to me that there is even a debate about illegals.
I totally agree, where I live, we have the 3rd largest concentration of illegal aliens and thus I deal with these people on a frequent basis, their coming here is almost like an invasion. I realized a long time ago that most of them have no desire to become citizens.
ChrisF202 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2004, 19:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
Confed999
Staff Emeritus
 
Confed999's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,681
Country:
Send a message via AIM to Confed999
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisF202
I realized a long time ago that most of them have no desire to become citizens.
That made me think of something a Cuban friend said to me once "I love the United States, but Cuba is home... I'm American until I can go home.". I hope he makes it home someday.
Confed999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2004, 14:42 PM   #5 (permalink)
Ray
Postmaster General
Military Professional
 
Ray's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-20-03
Posts: 27,232
Country:
Well said, Confed.

I would with all humility disagree with your Cuban friend.

Lap the milk and honey and live off the fat of the land and then say I want to go home. It, to my mind, is just not done.

Do forgive me, but I think now that your friend has lived off the US and it is better to be grateful to the US and be a good US citizen and do something good for the country of his choice. I would not yearn for 'home' that I quit for good reasons or otherwise.


BTW, I too am a 'refugee', but then I don't yearn for 'home'. My country is a country I came to. It has nurtured me and given me a new and respectable life. I am a citizen of my country of choice and proud to be so. It matters not to me where my folks originated from. It is history.

I am fond of my 'old' country, but the country that has made me aht I am is MY COUNTRY - always and every time.

Illegal immigrants are bums - always and everytime.
__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Last edited by Ray : 03-01-2004 at 14:47 PM.
Ray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2004, 16:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
Confed999
Staff Emeritus
 
Confed999's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,681
Country:
Send a message via AIM to Confed999
Quote:
Originally posted by Ray
I would with all humility disagree with your Cuban friend.

Lap the milk and honey and live off the fat of the land and then say I want to go home. It, to my mind, is just not done.

Do forgive me, but I think now that your friend has lived off the US and it is better to be grateful to the US and be a good US citizen and do something good for the country of his choice. I would not yearn for 'home' that I quit for good reasons or otherwise.


BTW, I too am a 'refugee', but then I don't yearn for 'home'. My country is a country I came to. It has nurtured me and given me a new and respectable life. I am a citizen of my country of choice and proud to be so. It matters not to me where my folks originated from. It is history.

I am fond of my 'old' country, but the country that has made me aht I am is MY COUNTRY - always and every time.
For him it's not where his folks originated, it's where he grew up, where he went to school, where he served in the military and where he fought Castro's move to communism. Many of his family are there, some hidden for over 3 decades, as well as his family home. He came here under the promise that the US would help him and his people to liberate Cuba. We have failed him, and most of the people of Cuba, miserably. "Home is where the heart is", and his is still in Cuba, I respect that and am amazed he has any love for the US. If you were to lose your country today, would you not long for it's liberation regardless of how well you're doing in the new place? I would, but I feel like that for everyone anyway.

BTW, I can't forgive you because I feel the same way in most cases. Just not this one.
Confed999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2004, 03:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
Ray
Postmaster General
Military Professional
 
Ray's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-20-03
Posts: 27,232
Country:
Confed,

With due regards to your views, I still think Illegals are bums. If one is a businessman with a labour intensive industry, then they all love illegals. If one wants to lord over and have domestic servants (in house), there is nothing like Illegals. But then, they are Illegals who have broken the law of the country they have sneaked into!

We have the Bangladeshis and they are just slumming and adding to the poverty, overworking a defunt social support system and jsut adding to the overflowing population. The worst is - they remain illiterates, child labour dependent and spread fundamentalism and add to the Communist vote bank!

Communists thrive on poverty and exploit it since the illiterates remain poor and the only recreation they can afford is proliferate and in the bargain the nation is tied down in shackles of decandence.

Last edited by Ray : 03-04-2004 at 03:23 AM.
Ray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2004, 14:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
Confed999
Staff Emeritus
 
Confed999's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,681
Country:
Send a message via AIM to Confed999
Quote:
Originally posted by Ray
I still think Illegals are bums.
Hey we found our mis-understanding, Cubans are not illegals in the USA. I consider illegals to be just some more criminals myself, but I do think it should be easier to be a legal immigrant.
Confed999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2004, 14:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
Confed999
Staff Emeritus
 
Confed999's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,681
Country:
Send a message via AIM to Confed999
I have no choice but to feel that immigration should be easier, when the plaque at the base of a symbol of this country says:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

I think the USA could do alot more than we are.
Confed999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2004, 17:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
ChrisF202
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: 08-12-03
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 2,593
Country:
Send a message via AIM to ChrisF202
So your saying we should just keep letting 1 - 5 milllion people into our country illegaly every year?
ChrisF202 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2004, 21:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
Confed999
Staff Emeritus
 
Confed999's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,681
Country:
Send a message via AIM to Confed999
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisF202
So your saying we should just keep letting 1 - 5 milllion people into our country illegaly every year?
Me?
Quote:
Originally posted by Confed999
I consider illegals to be just some more criminals myself, but I do think it should be easier to be a legal immigrant.
Confed999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2004, 10:38 AM   #12 (permalink)
Ray
Postmaster General
Military Professional
 
Ray's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-20-03
Posts: 27,232
Country:
I know it is incorrect of me to comment since it does not affect me, but what Confed is meaning is that if immigration is made a WEE bit less cumbersome, then maybe the ILLEGALs would reduce.

But then, its just a thought. Personally, I hate all illegal ways to con the system.
Ray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2004, 11:03 AM   #13 (permalink)
Confed999
Staff Emeritus
 
Confed999's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,681
Country:
Send a message via AIM to Confed999
Quote:
Originally posted by Ray
I know it is incorrect of me to comment since it does not affect me, but what Confed is meaning is that if immigration is made a WEE bit less cumbersome, then maybe the ILLEGALs would reduce.

But then, its just a thought. Personally, I hate all illegal ways to con the system.
I doubt the illegals would reuce by anything less than more enforcement of borders and harsher penalties.

My point really is, that the USA is made of immigrants. It's both our strength and weakness. It's evidenced by the plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty and by the title "Great Melting Pot". Those who are willing to go through the full process of becoming a legal immigrant and citizen of the United States should be given the opportunity to at least try.
Confed999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2004, 14:33 PM   #14 (permalink)
Ray
Postmaster General
Military Professional
 
Ray's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-20-03
Posts: 27,232
Country:
Confed,

I couldn't agree with you more.

My folks are legal US citizens and proud to be so. Good for them.

I am a legal citizen of my country and proud to be so.

Still, I hate all ILLEGALs.

If you are not wanted, why go there.

I am sure there will be hundred of reasons, but self respect is more important and not be hunted like an animal.

Harsh words, but I couldn't find a better way to state it. I ahve read that illegals move across Mexico and there are bounty hunters seeking them and killing them like dogs (Readers Digest, though they didn't use the word dog). But the powerful language used left me with no other impression. Christ, is that the way to live?

But then as I learn now for a learned friend, I read a book every Leap Year. Maybe the RD was something I read the last leap year. Things may have changed.:D

Last edited by Ray : 03-06-2004 at 14:36 PM.
Ray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2004, 17:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
Confed999
Staff Emeritus
 
Confed999's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,681
Country:
Send a message via AIM to Confed999
Quote:
Originally posted by Ray
My folks are legal US citizens and proud to be so. Good for them.
That's great. Hope the world allways finds them well.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ray
I ahve read that illegals move across Mexico and there are bounty hunters seeking them and killing them like dogs (Readers Digest, though they didn't use the word dog). But the powerful language used left me with no other impression.
I really don't know about that. There is no bounty for a dead Mexican that I know of. If there is, I would be willing to endorse bounty hunter hunting. :ermm
Confed999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Economic Survey 2005-06: overview of the economy Part I Neo Political Discussions 3 10-31-2007 09:19 AM
Bush renews immigration bill call Ray Political Discussions 7 04-10-2007 17:01 PM
Attempted Immigration THL Current Affairs 34 08-26-2006 13:42 PM
Europe’s next immigration crisis Ray Political Discussions 8 04-17-2006 23:28 PM
Araby Threaten Suicide!! Reject Reform tarek Political Discussions 30 12-23-2004 12:25 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 22:25 PM.


Rochen is the business hosting sponsor of World Affairs Board and a provider of reseller web hosting services.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC8