Sea Toby

I read in the news that the deliveries of the Airbus A380 will be considerably late, the company having entertainment systems wiring problems. Airbus announced it will run a few unprofitable quarters because of the delays, thus its share price dropped by a quarter as shareholders dumped stock.

Without enough capital the A-350 program will also suffer delays. Airbus looking for government bailout. Its a total mess.

Please read this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060616/...port_eads_dc_3

__________________
http://homepage.mac.com/donclark/.Public/waglogo.gif

gunnut

A-380 has weight problems. It's huge size made the wake turbulent so bad that follow up flights have to be spaced out at 2 min interval instead of the traditional 1 min or 90 sec. Airbus is not only delaying the initial delivery, it's also scaling back production schedule from 20 planes a year to 9 planes.

Singapore and other customers are not happy about it because they have to delay retiring schedule of their older jets set to be replaced by A-380.

Airbus is also thinking about a complete redesign of its A-350 to better compete against Boeing's 787, which will cost Airbus an extra 2 billion euros.

To be fair, the 787 is rumored to have weight problems of its own. Its ambitious fuel savings might have to be cut back, which will piss off customers who bought it based on efficiency.

It'll be interesting in the aviation industry over the next 2 years.

highsea

The 787 is right now 2.5% over the target weight, but there is a fudge factor built in to the target weight to guarantee the efficiency levels promised. This is not at all unusual for a new plane at this stage. Even at this weight, the fuel consumption would be as promised, so Boeing is not worried about that.

Last week a center barrel had to be scrapped due to bubbles caused by a faulty mandrel, but they are building 2 more simultaneously so that the schedule will not be set back. There were a couple nosecones that would not have been used on a production plane, but they were okay for a prototype. That's not an issue to Boeing, though it got some negative press.

Considering this is the first all-composite airframe for Boeing, things are looking pretty good. Singapore just booked an order for 20 planes last Wednesday.

__________________
My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

gunnut

That's good to hear.

I have always been in the 787's camp over the A-380. The A-380 is just an ugly, brute of a plane, built to be bigger than 747 and nothing else.

Looks like Boeing bet the farm on the right product, again.

highsea

I hope so.

I do think it's an easier decision for airlines to buy the 787 than the A-380, given the investment and all the additional fuss needed for the super jumbo (longer gates, way more seating in the terminal or multiple gates, etc). As much as I hate commercial flying, I can't imagine what it will be like at the gates for A-380 flights, and getting on and off the plane. I don't think it will be pretty...

Sea Toby

I was wondering whether Airbus would get pass the emergency evacuation drill, but they did. When Airbus started the A380 development was going to cost 10 million euros, it slid to 12 million euros, up to 16 million euros, and no telling how much more. Thats a lot of money.

With its size, its gonna take a lot of time to embark and disembark the A380. Terminal space for this aircraft will consume two gates. I'm not excited to fly on this airliner.

Major Dad

I think the A380 is going to be the whitest of white elephants.

Anybody know what it's footprint is? It doesn't look like it has that many main gear wheels, so I'm wondering how many airports have runways/taxiways/ramps that can handle one.

__________________
The more I think about it, ol' Billy was right.
Lets kill all the lawyers, lets kill 'em tonight.
- The Eagles

TopHatter

No worries. That's what budget-killing government subsidies are for.

gunnut

And you wonder correctly.

Many airports around the world, especially the major major hubs, have to upgrade their runways and other facilities to handle this beast. I wonder how many airports in US will pay for the upgrades.

Jay

More on the SIA news,

Boeing gains altitude as Airbus stalls

Check out the pic and the news heading....

Photo: AFP

SINGAPORE (AFP) - US aviation giant Boeing scored a major victory when Singapore Airlines (SIA) ordered 20 of its new mid-size jets while production delays plague its European rival Airbus, analysts said.

SIA on Wednesday announced an order for 20 Boeing 787 aircraft worth 4.5 billion dollars, just hours after publicly expressing displeasure over a fresh postponement in the delivery of the much-vaunted Airbus A380 super jumbo jet.

SIA, Asia's most profitable carrier, was supposed to be the first airline in the world to launch A380 commercial services and has spent a lot of resources to publicise the feat, only to be told this week it will have to wait longer.

SIA insists that the 787 order had no connection with the A380's woes.

The Airbus A380, which can seat 550 to 840 passengers, is supposed to supplant the venerable Boeing 747 as the reigning giant of the skies but production woes have bedevilled Airbus and its parent firm EADS.

In the middle of the market, the 250- to 290-seater Boeing 787 ordered by SIA -- with 20 additional planes on option -- is competing against the Airbus A350, whose development has also been delayed by design changes.

"It is a setback to Airbus as 20 Boeing 787 Dreamliners is a big order coming from an airline that Airbus hoped would make a significant order for the Airbus A350," Jason Pereira, an airline analyst with research and advisory firm Globalysis Ltd. in Singapore, told AFP.

The SIA contract, the largest for the 787 since Australia's Qantas ordered up to 115 jets in January, will restore the US plane maker as the number one in the world faster than anticipated, Pereira said.

"Boeing already looked set to regain its place as the largest commercial aircraft producer in the coming years," he said.

"Now with the growing orders for Boeing aircraft -- including the 787 Dreamliners -- it looks like it is going to happen sooner."

Airbus earlier said total orders last year gave it a 52 percent share of the global market. Boeing as a policy declines to state its market share.

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS), which owns 80 percent of Airbus, lost about 5.5 billion euros or more than one-quarter of its market value Wednesday after the further A380 delivery delays were announced.

Its share price ended at 18.73 euros, down 26.32 percent from the close on Tuesday. The firm warned that operating profit would be cut by about 500 million euros (625 million dollars) per year from 2007-2010 -- excluding possible contract terminations.

EADS shares staged a modest recovery after trading resumed Thursday.

Scorching economic growth has made the Asia-Pacific region a key battleground for the two aircraft makers, with cash-rich SIA heavily courted by both.

Asia Pacific carriers flew 43.33 million passengers in the January-April period, up 5.2 percent from a year ago, according to latest figures from the Kuala Lumpur-based Association of Asia Pacific Airlines.

"Competition between Boeing and Airbus is fierce in Asia. They are neck and neck so the (A380) delay is very good news for Boeing as it is trying to eat up the market in the Asia-Pacific region," said Choosak Ratanachaichan, an aviation analyst at Kasikorn Research Center in Bangkok.

But all is not lost for Airbus, whose single-aisle A320 is likely to remain the aircraft of choice for short-haul flights in Asia.

"Even if Boeing claims pole position, Airbus will probably be hot on its heels. Airbus has very strong sales of single-aisle aircraft with huge success with the A320 which continues to be popular with low-cost carriers," Pereira said.

Air China announced Thursday it had agreed to buy 24 A320s for 1.74 billion dollars for delivery between 2007 and 2010, boosting Airbus' fortunes in the Boeing-dominated mainland Chinese market.

Despite the delays in the A380's delivery, no Asian carrier has announced any intention to cancel orders for the super jumbo.

Korean Air said it would proceed with a 1.4-billion-dollar contract to buy five A380s despite the latest delay.

"The global status of Airbus will not be swayed much by recent developments unless clients go to (court) for damages," Kyobo Securities analyst Kim Seung-Chul said in Seoul.
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060615/af...114026eco.html

__________________
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

highsea

Supposedly the actual wheel weight is no higher than the 747, so existing runways and taxiways that can take the 747 are supposed to take the A-380. Gates are a different story, and have to be extended to reach the plane (the same thing was needed with the 747-400).

There are only a handful of airports in the US that can take the plane, since it's only real niche is in long haul flights between major International hubs.

My main concern is with what will happen inside the terminal, with 600 to 800 cattle being herded on and off the plane, stuffing all their crap in the ovherhead bins. It's gonna take forever to get off the ramp. And what about the congestion at the baggage claim? Lol, talk about travel rage, they're gonna need extra security/crowd control in US airports, we're not a patient bunch....

raj

when was the last time any engineering product of such complexities(millions of subsystems and more or less every thing has three to four copies of it, in different places, so that even if one system screws up the other takes control). Things as such do happen, and does anyone know wether 747 came out on schedule when it first cme into market?

__________________
saw this in some site dont remember the name tough

highsea

Well, "milions of subsystems" is a pretty large exaggeration...millions of parts, okay.

The first 747 rolled out only 3 years from the time the first contract was signed (and still flies today). During that time, the project manager took only one day off (one Christmas Eve).

It was less than 5 years from initial concept to FAA certification, anmd that [i]included[/] building the new factory. Construction on the plane began even before the plant was finished.

raj

not the date of contract signing, i want to know the date when the concept was tought that it was feasible to build one.
it could have been that most of the developement work for the 747 could have had been completed before the signing of the contract.
regarding the number of subsystems, may be i exagerated a bit more, but i am pretty sure that the present day A380 carries atleast 10 times more electronic subsystems than the one that was carried by the initial 747's

highsea

I thought I answered that. It was 5 years from concept to first delivery.
You can look up the history of the 747. Pan Am approached Boeing and the concept was worked out cooperatively after Boeing lost the bid for a new military cargo plane to Lockheed (the C-5 Galaxy). There was basically 2 years of development work by Boeing before anything was signed. This was mostly hashing out the design, building scale models, wind tunnel testing, etc.
No doubt. Virtually everything on the 747 was hydraulic/mechanical.

They didn't have the help of CAD/CAM systems in 1965. Full scale mylars were drawn by hand for every part and every assembly, all the way up to the fully assembled aircraft.

I'm not knocking EADS, but nobody knows how to build commercial jetliners better than Boeing.