It's important to keep this topic on the boil...

Bluesman · 03-26-2006, 10:08 AM

...and even if this thread gets locked, I think there is simply nothing that is as important as this is to the world's present situation.

Islam must decide its place in the world, and if that vision doesn't include the rest of us, then the rest of us must decide Islam's place in history.

Quote:

Facing down a culture where they talk like crazies

March 26, 2006

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Fate conspires to remind us what this war is really about: civilizational confidence. And so history repeats itself: first the farce of the Danish cartoons, and now the tragedy -- a man on trial for his life in post-Taliban Afghanistan because he has committed the crime of converting to Christianity.

The cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad were deeply offensive to Muslims, and so thousands protested around the world in the usual restrained manner: rioting, torching, killing, etc.

The impending execution of Abdul Rahman for embracing Christianity is, of course, offensive to Westerners, and so around the world we reacted equally violently by issuing blood-curdling threats like that made by State Department spokesman Sean McCormack: "Freedom of worship is an important element of any democracy," he said. "And these are issues as Afghan democracy matures that they are going to have to deal with increasingly."

The immediate problem for Rahman is whether he'll get the chance to "mature" along with Afghan democracy. The president, the Canadian prime minister and the Australian prime minister have all made statements of concern about his fate, and it seems clear that Afghanistan's dapper leader Hamid Karzai would like to resolve this issue before his fledgling democracy gets a reputation as just another barbarous Islamist sewer state. There's talk of various artful compromises, such as Rahman being declared unfit to stand trial by reason of insanity on the grounds that (I'm no Islamic jurist so I'm paraphrasing here) anyone who converts from Islam to Christianity must ipso facto be out of his tree.

On the other hand, this "moderate" compromise solution is being rejected by leading theologians. Let this guy Rahman cop an insanity plea and there goes the neighborhood. "We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," says Abdul Raoulf of the nation's principal Muslim body, the Afghan Ulama Council. "Cut off his head! We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left." Needless to say, Imam Raoulf is one of Afghanistan's leading "moderate" clerics.

For what it's worth, I'm with the Afghan Ulama Council in objecting to the insanity defense. It's not enough for Rahman to get off on a technicality. Afghanistan is supposed to be "the good war," the one even the French supported, albeit notionally and mostly retrospectively. Karzai is kept alive by a bodyguard of foreigners. The fragile Afghan state is protected by American, British, Canadian, Australian, Italian, German and other troops, hundreds of whom have died. You cannot ask Americans or Britons to expend blood and treasure to build a society in which a man can be executed for his choice of religion. You cannot tell a serving member of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry in Kandahar that he, as a Christian, must sacrifice his life to create a Muslim state in which his faith is a capital offense.

As always, we come back to the words of Osama bin Laden: ''When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature they will like the strong horse.'' That's really the only issue: the Islamists know our side has tanks and planes, but they have will and faith, and they reckon in a long struggle that's the better bet. Most prominent Western leaders sound way too eager to climb into the weak-horse suit and audition to play the rear end. Consider, for example, the words of the Prince of Wales, speaking a few days ago at al-Azhar University in Cairo. This is "the world's oldest university," though what they learn there makes the average Ivy League nuthouse look like a beacon of sanity. Anyway, this is what His Royal Highness had to say to 800 Islamic "scholars":

"The recent ghastly strife and anger over the Danish cartoons shows the danger that comes of our failure to listen and to respect what is precious and sacred to others. In my view, the true mark of a civilized society is the respect it pays to minorities and to strangers."

That's correct. But the reality is our society pays enormous respect to minorities -- President Bush holds a monthlong Ramadan-a-ding-dong at the White House every year; the immediate reaction to the slaughter of 9/11 by the president, the prince, the prime ministers of Britain, Canada and everywhere else was to visit a mosque to demonstrate their great respect for Islam. One party to this dispute is respectful to a fault: after all, to describe the violence perpetrated by Muslims over the Danish cartoons as the "recent ghastly strife" barely passes muster as effete Brit toff understatement.

Unfortunately, what's "precious and sacred" to Islam is its institutional contempt for others. In his book Islam And The West, Bernard Lewis writes, "The primary duty of the Muslim as set forth not once but many times in the Koran is 'to command good and forbid evil.' It is not enough to do good and refrain from evil as a personal choice. It is incumbent upon Muslims also to command and forbid."

Or as the shrewd Canadian columnist David Warren put it: "We take it for granted that it is wrong to kill someone for his religious beliefs. Whereas Islam holds it is wrong not to kill him." In that sense, those blood-curdling imams are right, and Karzai's attempts to finesse the issue are, sharia-wise, wrong.

I can understand why the president and the secretary of state would rather deal with this through back-channels, private assurances from their Afghan counterparts, etc. But the public rhetoric is critical, too. At some point we have to face down a culture in which not only the mob in the street but the highest judges and academics talk like crazies.

Rahman embodies the question at the heart of this struggle: If Islam is a religion one can only convert to not from, then in the long run it is a threat to every free person on the planet. What can we do? Should governments with troops in Afghanistan pass joint emergency legislation conferring their citizenship on this poor man and declaring him, as much as Karzai, under their protection?

In a more culturally confident age, the British in India were faced with the practice of "suttee" -- the tradition of burning widows on the funeral pyres of their husbands. General Sir Charles Napier was impeccably multicultural:

''You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: When men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows.You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

India today is better off without suttee. If we shrink from the logic of that, then in Afghanistan and many places far closer to home the implications are, as the Prince of Wales would say, "ghastly."

©Mark Steyn 2006

Copyright © Mark Steyn, 2006

Copyright © The Sun-Times Company
All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Bluesman · 03-26-2006, 10:20 AM

We've GOT to talk about this. I don't intend to be insulting to Islam (although its most vocal, excitable, and energized adherants sure make that easy, almost the default position), but if it cannot be demonstrated that I and my family, my nation and my culture have nothing to fear from it, then I will attempt to eradicate it, root and branch, from the entire planet.

Because reform cannot come from the rest of us; it'll change only when it's dam' good and ready, propelled by its own members from within. I see no such impetus at this time, and indeed, if Rahman is executed for a crime of conscience, then I'd say we have the answer on whether the Bush Doctrine is viable: if we've replaced one Medieval, savage and backward regime with another that is just as benighted...then we truly are in a cultural war to the knife.

Sharia law is a blight on the planet. Same for Wahabbism. It's well past time to start treating them exactly like the threats we faced and defeated in the 20th Century: totalitarianism, racism and bigotry. Because that's exactly what they are, and if one or another person thinks otherwise, then treat them as the enemy, too, because they are nothing but fellow-travellers, useful idiots, and collaborators.

I don't care if I've crossed the line with this post, re: not showing requisite respect for another's religion. If I'm to be banned for being insulting Islam/Sharia/Wahabbism, then I really don't belong here, anyway. But as I said, there is simply nothing that rates as high on my priority list now as the defeat of this kind of chauvanism.

It's a mortal threat to freedom everywhere, and it's my enemy.

Victory or Death.

HistoricalDavid · 03-26-2006, 10:26 AM

"President Bush holds a monthlong Ramadan-a-ding-dong;"

Hahahahahaha!

Mark Steyn always was brutally frank. Nice work.

**Parihaka** · 03-26-2006, 18:48 PM

I'm a family oriented sort of guy. There is nothing as important to me as my immediate and extended family, everything else combined comes a distant second.
I've heard a lot about Islam here, I've been quoted the Koran chapter and verse, I've been told that radical Islam and Wahabbism is not the norm. I've been told that Sharia Law and its parent Islam is a religion of peace and the violence initiated in Islams name is the work of uneducated fools, and my reply is "Islam speaks with forked tongue".
I've heard how I should be accomodating, basically 'live and let live', but everywhere I've looked where Islam has taken hold, I've seen corruption, theft, poverty and loss of freedom. I've been told in my own country that I should respect Islam and its tenents at the same time that I should have a law preventing me from criticising Islam.
I have seen all the advances made by my ancestors, the introduction of secularism, the freedom to question and debate, the emancipation of women and the advances of science and technology (all of which have lead to a time where those who belong to western society enjoy freedoms and living conditions unparalleled in human history) and had them denigrated as the work of the devil.

I will not allow my daughter to be forced to wear head to toe covering or face rape as punishment.

I will not allow my children to be denied the right to question and decide what path in life they will take or how they live that life.

I will protect the rights my ancestors have fought to gift to me, and I will continue their work so that my descendants will have freedoms and living conditions that I can only dream of.

I borrow here a custom of the Arapaho people. I am driving a stake in the ground and binding my foot to that stake. I hold my ground here and will die rather than retreat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesman

I don't care if I've crossed the line with this post, re: not showing requisite respect for another's religion. If I'm to be banned for being insulting Islam/Sharia/Wahabbism, then I really don't belong here, anyway. But as I said, there is simply nothing that rates as high on my priority list now as the defeat of this kind of chauvanism.

It's a mortal threat to freedom everywhere, and it's my enemy.

Victory or Death.

troung · 03-26-2006, 20:12 PM

Quote:

It's a mortal threat to freedom everywhere, and it's my enemy.

And what do you say to the Muslims fighting alongside us?

dalem · 03-26-2006, 20:12 PM

I'm with you Bluesman (and I mean to give you a call tonight).

Since 9/11 I've been told that I'm the one who has to show restraint and respect for something that kicked me in the face.

I've been told that the head-sawers, the bomb-belt makers, the child-killers, etc., are not the true voice of Islam.

I've been told that a group one billion people strong can't counter a message from just a few thousand "extremists" in its midst.

I'm long sick and tired of such dangerous foolishness.

-dale

dalem · 03-26-2006, 20:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troung

And what do you say to the Muslims fighting alongside us?

I say thank you and you haven't done enough to fix your own problems.

-dale

Aryan · 03-26-2006, 20:26 PM

I've changed my views on this. I couldn't care less whether that Afghan guy gets beheaded or not, I don't think its wrong. Afghanistan is a soverign nation and one that is entitled to its own laws.

No, it isn't a crime to be a christian in Afghanistan. It is however a criminal offense to convert to christianity, and then to refuse to anull the conversion. The guy has had plenty of options, he could have moved to a country that didn't have shariah law, or he could have simply kept quiet.

But no, the idiot thinks he's smart and wants to become a martyr for a fairytale religion and made up God, so by all means I hope the government grants him his wish.

western nations legalise the murder of children by labelling it "abortion", I think its a sick and barbaric practice, far worst than killing someone for becoming a christian. I also think the death penalty is wrong and barbaric. But each country is entitled to their own interpretation of what they believe is right, and if Americans or any nation want to practice either of the above then by all means go for it.

Aryan · 03-26-2006, 20:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

I say thank you and you haven't done enough to fix your own problems.

-dale

How about you fix your own damn problems before you start asking muslims to fix theirs? At least with muslims, mullahs are armed to the teeth and aren't afraid to use them, whats your excuse?

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-26-2006, 20:44 PM

Not trying to be smart but any articles where Mullahs are leading the way into battle?

**Parihaka** · 03-26-2006, 20:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aryan

How about you fix your own damn problems before you start asking muslims to fix theirs? At least with muslims, mullahs are armed to the teeth and aren't afraid to use them, whats your excuse?

Have you not read the above posts?
We ARE addressing our problems.

**Parihaka** · 03-26-2006, 20:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troung

And what do you say to the Muslims fighting alongside us?

Welcome brother and please pass the salt

Aryan · 03-26-2006, 20:56 PM

Do you even know what I'm on about? Here's a fresh one:

Man did not rescue child for fear of 'pervert' slur
ALEX CORNELIUS

A BRICKLAYER who passed a toddler walking alone in a village shortly before her fatal fall into a pond said yesterday he did not stop to help in case people thought he was trying to abduct her.

Clive Peachey, from Cornwall, told an inquest jury in Stratford-upon-Avon that he had passed two-year-old girl, Abby Rae, in his van shortly after 10am on 28 November, 2002.

This was just moments after the toddler disappeared from the Ready Teddy Go nursery in the Warwickshire village of Lower Brailes, according to staff.

Abby was found an hour later in an algae-covered garden pond and rescued by her mother, Victoria Rae.

She was taken to Birmingham Children's Hospital by air ambulance but was pronounced dead.

Mr Peachey, of Liskeard, told the inquest he had passed the little girl as she tottered towards the road in High Street.

He said: "I kept thinking I should go back. The reason I didn't go back was because I thought people might think I was trying to abduct her.

"I was convinced her parents were driving around and had found her."

Mrs Rae, 36, wept as Mr Peachey gave his evidence to the packed hearing.

She had earlier read emotionally from a statement as she relived the moment she dragged her daughter from the pond.

Two nursery employees had gone into the garden during their search but told the inquest they did not see the pond because it was covered in green vegetation.

The inquest was adjourned until today.

This article: http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=448552006

troung · 03-26-2006, 21:01 PM

I think it is rather silly to repeat the same agruments over and over again with people who I know where they standand they know where I stand...

=====

Quote:

I've been told that the head-sawers, the bomb-belt makers, the child-killers, etc., are not the true voice of Islam.

There is not a monolithic voice of Islam. Go figure but I guess the bomb makers and head sawers have done a good job at convincing people, who had barely heard of Afghanistan until 9-11, that they are the voice of Islam. There is no voice of Islam.

Slightly off topic I remember reading a neat theory awhile back that in fact the radicals wanted us to view and treat the majority as if the radicals were running the show to cause people to go towards them.

Quote:

I say thank you and you haven't done enough to fix your own problems.

So selling short the ones trying to fix the problems? Why don't we just wage the holy way so many of here wish to do and get all the ones on our side and the vast majority who are simply living their lives to switch sides because it is obvious that so many members here want to lump all Muslims together as evil bloc. Or why don't we see the problem for what it is, guys attempting the take power by hiding in a religion.

I posted a really neat article about the struggle of a Moro who joined the government forces to fight other Moros many of who he is related to by blood... I guess you should seek him out and tell him he hasn't done enough...

Quote:

I've been told that a group one billion people strong can't counter a message from just a few thousand "extremists" in its midst.

The one billion are far from unifed in beliefs. One could view it as heavily armed drug dealers in a community...

====
And yeah I think it is stone age to put a man to death for his religous beliefs.

Aryan · 03-26-2006, 21:04 PM

I think any society that creates a climate where its preferable to arguably let a two year old child die for fear of being called a child abuctor than to do the sane thing and help the kid is a messed up one. Even in Afghanistan, for all its woes and backwardness, you wouldn't see somethng like this happening.

So go on... whats going to happen about it?

03-26-2006, 10:20 AM	#2 (permalink)
Bluesman WAB Bartender *Defense Professional* *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-24-04 Location: Vacaville, CA. Posts: 7,386 Country:	We've GOT to talk about this. I don't intend to be insulting to Islam (although its most vocal, excitable, and energized adherants sure make that easy, almost the default position), but if it cannot be demonstrated that I and my family, my nation and my culture have nothing to fear from it, then I will attempt to eradicate it, root and branch, from the entire planet. Because reform cannot come from the rest of us; it'll change only when it's dam' good and ready, propelled by its own members from within. I see no such impetus at this time, and indeed, if Rahman is executed for a crime of conscience, then I'd say we have the answer on whether the Bush Doctrine is viable: if we've replaced one Medieval, savage and backward regime with another that is just as benighted...then we truly are in a cultural war to the knife. Sharia law is a blight on the planet. Same for Wahabbism. It's well past time to start treating them exactly like the threats we faced and defeated in the 20th Century: totalitarianism, racism and bigotry. Because that's exactly what they are, and if one or another person thinks otherwise, then treat them as the enemy, too, because they are nothing but fellow-travellers, useful idiots, and collaborators. I don't care if I've crossed the line with this post, re: not showing requisite respect for another's religion. If I'm to be banned for being insulting Islam/Sharia/Wahabbism, then I really don't belong here, anyway. But as I said, there is simply nothing that rates as high on my priority list now as the defeat of this kind of chauvanism. It's a mortal threat to freedom everywhere, and it's my enemy. Victory or Death. Last edited by Bluesman : 03-26-2006 at 13:18 PM.

03-26-2006, 20:44 PM	#10 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,915 Country:	Not trying to be smart but any articles where Mullahs are leading the way into battle? __________________ Chimo

03-26-2006, 20:56 PM	#13 (permalink)
Aryan Banished Join Date: 05-02-04 Posts: 1,532	Do you even know what I'm on about? Here's a fresh one: Man did not rescue child for fear of 'pervert' slur ALEX CORNELIUS A BRICKLAYER who passed a toddler walking alone in a village shortly before her fatal fall into a pond said yesterday he did not stop to help in case people thought he was trying to abduct her. Clive Peachey, from Cornwall, told an inquest jury in Stratford-upon-Avon that he had passed two-year-old girl, Abby Rae, in his van shortly after 10am on 28 November, 2002. This was just moments after the toddler disappeared from the Ready Teddy Go nursery in the Warwickshire village of Lower Brailes, according to staff. Abby was found an hour later in an algae-covered garden pond and rescued by her mother, Victoria Rae. She was taken to Birmingham Children's Hospital by air ambulance but was pronounced dead. Mr Peachey, of Liskeard, told the inquest he had passed the little girl as she tottered towards the road in High Street. He said: "I kept thinking I should go back. The reason I didn't go back was because I thought people might think I was trying to abduct her. "I was convinced her parents were driving around and had found her." Mrs Rae, 36, wept as Mr Peachey gave his evidence to the packed hearing. She had earlier read emotionally from a statement as she relived the moment she dragged her daughter from the pond. Two nursery employees had gone into the garden during their search but told the inquest they did not see the pond because it was covered in green vegetation. The inquest was adjourned until today. This article: http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=448552006 Last edited by Aryan : 03-26-2006 at 20:58 PM.

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03-26-2006, 10:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
HistoricalDavid Distant Deeps or Skies *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 07-19-05 Location: North London, UK Posts: 2,006 Country:	"President Bush holds a monthlong Ramadan-a-ding-dong;" Hahahahahaha! Mark Steyn always was brutally frank. Nice work.

03-26-2006, 20:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
dalem Lord High Hullabalooster *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-23-04 Location: Columbia Heights, MN Posts: 8,319 Country:	I'm with you Bluesman (and I mean to give you a call tonight). Since 9/11 I've been told that I'm the one who has to show restraint and respect for something that kicked me in the face. I've been told that the head-sawers, the bomb-belt makers, the child-killers, etc., are not the true voice of Islam. I've been told that a group one billion people strong can't counter a message from just a few thousand "extremists" in its midst. I'm long sick and tired of such dangerous foolishness. -dale

03-26-2006, 20:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
Aryan Banished Join Date: 05-02-04 Posts: 1,532	I've changed my views on this. I couldn't care less whether that Afghan guy gets beheaded or not, I don't think its wrong. Afghanistan is a soverign nation and one that is entitled to its own laws. No, it isn't a crime to be a christian in Afghanistan. It is however a criminal offense to convert to christianity, and then to refuse to anull the conversion. The guy has had plenty of options, he could have moved to a country that didn't have shariah law, or he could have simply kept quiet. But no, the idiot thinks he's smart and wants to become a martyr for a fairytale religion and made up God, so by all means I hope the government grants him his wish. western nations legalise the murder of children by labelling it "abortion", I think its a sick and barbaric practice, far worst than killing someone for becoming a christian. I also think the death penalty is wrong and barbaric. But each country is entitled to their own interpretation of what they believe is right, and if Americans or any nation want to practice either of the above then by all means go for it.

03-26-2006, 21:04 PM	#15 (permalink)
Aryan Banished Join Date: 05-02-04 Posts: 1,532	I think any society that creates a climate where its preferable to arguably let a two year old child die for fear of being called a child abuctor than to do the sane thing and help the kid is a messed up one. Even in Afghanistan, for all its woes and backwardness, you wouldn't see somethng like this happening. So go on... whats going to happen about it?

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