It's important to keep this topic on the boil... - Page 10

Asim Aquil · 03-27-2006, 10:10 AM

@ Sparten. Better late than never.

I'm trying my best not to insult people here on the people to people level. That just ends up in getting the thread closed. Already one admin claimed one thread to close down as partially being my fault.

Don't believe in censorship and would love to take any adversary head on. I'd be damned if someone's left thinking "Oh they got away easy" when one of these threads closes.

Neat sig. My fav is one of the opening lines "Tis bitter cold and I'm sick at heart".

Samudra · 03-27-2006, 11:09 AM

Asim,

Girls can drive their cars in Arabia?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4089332.stm

Quote:

Conservatives argue that if women were allowed to drive, they would be able to mix freely with men.

Srirangan · 03-27-2006, 11:15 AM

Superficial question. Let's ask the tough ones. Can they vote? Do they have a right to equality, property, divorce etc. WHy is it that an Arab man can marry 4 while the women can't marry more than one. Equality is the key.

Hopefully Teesta Aggarwal will ask the tough questions where they are needed to be asked.

Asim Aquil · 03-27-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samudra

Asim,

Girls can drive their cars in Arabia?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4089332.stm

My mom's a driver for 24 years. So I'd say they can.

My mom can vote in Pakistan. But voting's not really a part of day to day life. There are a lot more things that make up a society.

Samudra · 03-27-2006, 11:27 AM

So whats that law all about?

You show us the rich elite and moderate side of Islam.
We dont deny its existence.

Srirangan · 03-27-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

My mom's a driver for 24 years. So I'd say they can.

My mom can vote in Pakistan. But voting's not really a part of day to day life. There are a lot more things that make up a society.

No one's vote has a meaning in Pakistan. And now, women can't drive in Arabia. Right to inherit property? Equality? These are important questions which you will try to evade making trivial jests.

Ray · 03-27-2006, 11:32 AM

Sparten,

The man in Afghanistan is to die because he converted and can be saved if he reconverts to Islam.

Is that a Pashtun tribal law? Is it from the Shariat? Is it from Hudood? Or is it from the Criminal Procedure Code left by the British?

Do clarify.

I have my doubts about it being a legacy of the British because British Law is in India and the name is changed to Criminal Procedure Code and there is no provision that anyone who converts from any religion to another will be put to death unless he reconverts!

*******

In so far as your soldier in the hospital maimed and some dead, I understand the agony.

The same is felt in India, where such happenings have been common place ever since the foreign assisted and funded Insurgency has come to be. We have faced the same agony for decades!

I am glad you understand the agony and that we suffered the agony many of your compatriots here, on the forum, gleefully applauded!

The shoe pinches the wearer.

That Moslems are killing Moslem in the NWFP is a very unusal happening in Islam, except for Shias killing Sunnis and vice versa.

Why are Moslems killing Moslems in the NWFP? Because Zia released the genie of Islamic fundamentalists and Moslems are reaping what he sowed, thinking it to be a great coup de maître! Sadly, God they say visit the sins of the Father upon the children.

It is still not too late.

My heartfelt condolences to the family of those in your Army who are dead and my heartfelt sympathies to those wounded and maimed.

I do not applaud their sufferings. I empathise with their agony that they and, their families, are enduring, possibly for life!

I too have been near vicitim of terrorist bomb attacks, but then unlike you, it was a part of my job so to say and the risk that I had to take because I was a soldier who had to do his duty so that civilians all over India could have a unfretful sleep, even if it meant I stay awake!

Asim Aquil · 03-27-2006, 11:44 AM

Errr did you just call me rich?

Haha sure. It exists, you say...

Samudra · 03-27-2006, 11:47 AM

I remember that Bird which costs so much.

Do you deny that women are not allowed to drive in Saudi?

Asim Aquil · 03-27-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srirangan

No one's vote has a meaning in Pakistan. And now, women can't drive in Arabia. Right to inherit property? Equality? These are important questions which you will try to evade making trivial jests.

Dude, u keep saying my examples are not important.

I really don't want to post a picture of my mom sitting on wheels here.

Women can drive! They suck at it, but they caan and like almost all girls I've grown up with usually do when they're 18 after getting their licence.

People can inherit property based on what the will states. If you want to give equally make a will like that. Again not really a day to day affair.

Bluesman · 03-27-2006, 11:49 AM

Asim, buddy, I really AM with you. The moderates are doing a helluva job in SOME places, and I am not implying that we're eager to kill all the Muslims. Far, far from it.

But are you not tired of it yet? Can you not see what we see?

I know Dubai is a terrific place - I've done the research, and I intend to see it for myself as soon as i can. Dubai isn't our problem, and I daresay it'll be part of the solution, if there is one.

ISLAM is too easily used as a rally point for the ones we can NEVER be friends with. Y'all need a Martin Luther, but of course, we all know what happened in the seat of Christendom when we got ours: genocidal warfare beween the sects, some of which carries on right into the present day.

But if it's not the Old Way against the New Way, I guarantee you it'll be All of Us against All of You. You'd better get started.

Srirangan · 03-27-2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Dude, u keep saying my examples are not important.

I really don't want to post a picture of my mom sitting on wheels here.

Women can drive! They suck at it, but they caan and like almost all girls I've grown up with usually do when they're 18 after getting their licence.

People can inherit property based on what the will states. If you want to give equally make a will like that. Again not really a day to day affair.

You are right. And BBC's story about how Ladies can't drive or vote in Arabia is wrong. And yes, not a day to day affairs like say doing the Namaz. May Allah bless the liberal Islamic law that allows women to pray to God.

Dude, like it or not, equality, adult franchise, and property inheritence are very important in society.

Ray · 03-27-2006, 11:55 AM

I will not comment on Islamic law on property etc in my own words. Let better people speak:

Quote:

Can Sharia (Islamic Law) work in the 21st Century?

Sharia law is no longer an obscure niche in the study of Islam. Today Sharia, its role in political Islam and its impact on the daily lives of Muslim women and humanity has made headlines everywhere, almost daily. For example:
** in Canada amid lots of social controversy and resistance, a Sharia court has formally started working on domestic and business issues with the blessing of Canadian law.
** in Nigeria and Pakistan unmarried girls and widows or divorced women who gets pregnant even by rape, are flogged or sentenced to death by stoning.
** in Malaysia by court order, a woman got instantly divorced by her husband by message left in answering machine.
** in Afghanistan women are banned by law from performing on radio or TV even for news broadcasting.
** in Pakistan hundreds of women are jailed under adultery and blasphemy laws.
** in Bangladesh, women are forced into strangers' beds by Sharia law while raped minor girls are flogged under Zina (adultery) law.
** in Iran, Pakistan, Sudan and Malaysia etc, women are fighting against oppressive Sharia laws which limit their lives in countless ways. .
One may wonder how these abuses can happen in a world aware of human rights. Are these really Islamic laws or misapplications of Sharia? This brief essay will explore and analyze the origins, the development and the impact of Sharia law on Muslim women. It will end with a call to the West, and to Muslim's themselves, to realize the magnitude of Sharia's threat to humanity.

http://www.freemuslims.org/document.php?id=41

Ray · 03-27-2006, 12:00 PM

Examples of some Sharia Laws

Quote:

Modern laws are based on human rights. Sharia however is based on perceived duties to God. In Sharia there is hardly any distinction between crime and sin. Social obligations are fused and confused with worship of the Creator. Political Islam, the main torchbearer of Sharia, was born out of a misleading conviction of the political dimensions of Muslim-empire with Islamic faith system. It integrated political events of Muslims with Islam itself. It is important to note that in the ongoing debates on Sharia in numerous articles books and interviews, Political Islamists make only sweeping comments. Quoting the actual Sharia laws are carefully avoided. As examples are better than explanations, here are a few laws on women's rights and human rights from Islamic world's most authentic sources namely: - (A) Umdat Al Salik, Imam Shafi'i, one of Islam's four foremost Jurists in 7th century. (B) Hedaya of Imam Abu Hanifa, one of Islam's four foremost Jurists in 7th century. (C) Text of Pakistan's Hudood Law. (D) Penal Law of Islam (E) Sharia the Islamic Law - Dr. Abdur Rahman Doi and (F) Islamic Laws - Ayatollah Seestani.

1. A Muslim cannot be put to death for the murder of an unbeliever. (According to clause #14 of Prophet's Medina-Charter, proudly claimed by Sharia-proponents as "The First Written Constitution in the World".

2. A Muslim man is allowed to beat his wife or wives. - Qura'anic dictum.

3. A Muslim man is allowed to have four wives at one time. - Qura'anic dictum

4. A Muslim man can divorce his wife or wives instantaneously. Then he can marry a new set of wives and continue the cycle. - Corollary of Qura'anic dictum.

5. A Muslim woman must pay money to the husband by court orders to have the marriage dissolved. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum..

6. If a divorced couple wants to remarry each other, the wife must marry another person, must have complete sex with him and must be divorced by him willingly. - Qura'anic dictum.

7. The evidence required in a case of adultery is that of four Muslim adult men - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.

8. Women's testimony is not accepted in cases of adultery or in any capital offence. - Faulty human development.

9. Evidence of a female singer and slave (male or female) is not admissible. - Faulty human development.

10. Testimony of a non-Muslim that has been punished for false accusation is inadmissible. If s/he later becomes a Muslim, her/his evidence is then admissible. -Faulty human development.

11. The Judge of the Court shall be a Muslim. The Judge may be a non-Muslim only if the accused is a non-Muslim. -Faulty human development.

12. Adoption is not allowed in Sharia. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.

13. Custody of children goes to mother as long as the kids need care, normally 9 years for boys and 7 for girls, after which the father takes over. But if the mother does not pray or gets married, the kids immediately go to the father. - Faulty human development.

14. Women inherit half of men. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum..

15. Women's witness is half of men's in business transactions. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum..

16. If a woman is killed, the blood money (the money a killer has to pay to the family of the killed on demand to get acquitted) is half of that of a Muslim man. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.

17. Apostates (Muslims who leave Islam) automatically get death penalty. If not available for killing, their marriage is dissolved and they cannot inherit from Muslim parents or children. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.

18. Muslim men can marry Christian and Jews women but Muslim women can marry only a Muslim man. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.

19. A Muslim virgin cannot marry without permission of her male guardian.- Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.

20. A man can marry a woman for a fixed time, from few hours to several years (Mu'ta Marriage, - Sharia of Shia sect.). Rich men from the Middle East travel to Southern India to take advantage of this law on financially poor women, so do rich Iranian men on their women. The misery of those women and children born out of this practice are beyond comprehension. - Faulty human development.

Although full with pro-women advices, it is difficult to find pro-women laws in Sharia. There is no punishment for violating the pro-women advices either. So, in case of conflict of interest, law overrules advice. In that sense it perfectly represent strong patriarchy. Obviously, what Dr. Hisham Kamali, one of strongest authorities on Sharia suggested in his voluminous "Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence" has never been taken care of, quote- "I have consequently commented on the nature of the challenge that Muslim scholars and jurists must take up if the methodology of Usul-al-Fiqh and Ijtihad are to be revitalized and integrated into the process of law and government in modern times".

It is strange that without taking the burden of the challenge Political Islam acts a copycat of the past and tries to impose Sharia without updating. Once updated, Sharia might be very similar to existing laws of secular democratic countries. Muslims are not alone regarding objection to few laws such as same-sex marriage or abortion; some non-Muslims share the same vision. It is indeed surprising that Political Islamists remain vague about explaining how to integrate "Islamic teaching" in universal legal matters. They never point out which Western Law is against Islamic teaching and why. Dr. Hisham Kamali showed the serious and huge work done in 7-8th centuries to build Islamic Jurisprudence. But at the end it does not meet justice to humanity in general and women rights in particular. It is like the huge fifty thousand pages research-paper of a medicine that has serious and malignant side effects.

3. TWO MAJOR ROOTS OF SHARIA LAW.

The Qura'an and the Prophet's sayings are two of the most important sources of Sharia. Though Sharia violates the Qura'an in many of its major laws, (see - Violation of the Qura'an) it is undeniable that some Qura'anic verses, such as on wife beating, slave sleeping, women's inheritance and witness etc are unacceptable to today's concept of human rights. On the other hand, we should acknowledge that Islam began by establishing some revolutionary progress on women rights. Those were only the first steps to set the direction, Muslims were supposed to take it further towards women's complete equity. That has never happened. It may be noted that particular interpretations of the Qura'anic verses in law making were never univocal among Muslims. Different versions of Sharia were creates by individuals personally, not by public opinion or by institution. So, with a different interpretation of a different individual, laws have become different. Different Islamic scholars always interpreted verses of wife-beating, slave sleeping, women's half inheritance or witness etc, differently. But political Islam takes the codified Sharia as infallible.

Regarding the role of the Prophet Mohammed, suffice it to say that Abu Bakar and Omar, Prophet's two closest companions burnt their records of Prophet's sayings for fear of getting mixed up with the Qura'an (Shortened Encyclopaedia of Islam - from "Sangskar" - Jamilul Basher). Yet within two centuries of his death, hundreds of thousands, even a million "recorded examples" were established. The reason was probably to protect the Kings' vested interests or to validate their crimes in the Prophet's name. A few of the Prophet's sayings relating to women are quoted here mainly from "Women's Exegesis in Islam" - Abul Kasem. (A compilation about women-related "Prophet's examples" from most authentic Islamic sources).

(A) Women would have been commanded to prostrate before their husbands, had anyone be commanded to make prostration before another. -Sunaan Abu Dawud 11.2135, & Ehya Ulum Al Deen - Imam Gazzali Vol 2.
(B) If the body of the husband from head to toe would be full with pus and the wife would eat that by licking, still her gratitude (to him) would not be fulfilled - Ehya Ulum Al Deen - Imam Gazzali Vol 2.
(C) Majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire are women. -Sahi Bukhari 1.6.301.
(D) If a dog, a donkey or a woman pass in front of the praying people, Prayer is annulled. - Sahi Bukhari 1.9.490.
(E) Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse. -Sahi Bukhari; 7.62.30.
(F) Women are more harmful to men than anything else. - Shahih Muslim 36.6603.
(G) The house, the wife and the horse are bad luck. - Shahih Muslim 26.5523.
(H) A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife. - Sunaan Abu Dawud 11.2142.
(I) "The essence of marriage is slavery. After marriage the wife enters slavery of the husband". - Imam Gazzali - Ehya Ulum Al Deen Vol 2.
(J) People ruled by a woman will never be successful. - Sahi Bukhari 5.59.709.
(K) Nothing is more harmful to men than women. - Shahih Bukhari 7.62.33.
(L) "The devil says to women: �You are half my army". - Imam Gazzali Ehya Ulum Al Deen - Vol. II, p367.
(M) Because of Eve women are unfaithful towards their husbands. - Shahih Muslim 8.3471.

This is how our Prophet is misused by countless similar examples recorded in core Islamic scriptures. In secondary or tertiary so-called Islamic sources, extremely objectionable words are mentioned in his name. Example: -. "If a woman offered one of her breasts to be cooked and the other to be roasted, she still will fall short of fulfilling her obligations to her husband. And besides that if she disobeys her husband even for a twinkling of an eye, she would be thrown in the lowest part of Hell, except she repents and turns back." - Tuffaha, Ahmad Zaky, Al-Mar'ah wal- Islam, Dar al-Kitab al-Lubnani, Beirut, first edition, 1985, p. 176. It is also quoted in Al-Musanaf by Abu Bakr Ahmad Ibn 'Abd Allah Ibn Mousa Al-Kanadi who lived 557H, vol. 1 part 2, p. 255. (Original reference is not checked).

These documents continue to embarrass good Muslims. No good law can be made based on such examples. That is why Dr. Hashmi says, - "Sharia was destined to be corrupt because it is made out of a corrupt element called Prophet's examples". The vast Muslim population is illiterate and mentally weak, their Islam is whatever their clergy says. They cannot even think outside the clergy's sermons.

There are a few other sources of Sharia, reflecting the patriarchy prevailing at that time. The concept of women's rights did not develop in the Muslim empire mainly because Muslims have a tendency to detach themselves from others. As Dr. Maimul Ahsan Khan very eloquently said: -

"Surprisingly enough, the Muslim rulers, politicians, intellectuals, and religious personalities overlooked the entire ongoing process of constitutional and legal developments in the Western countries". -

Source: Human Rights in the Muslim World: Fundamentalism, Constitutionalism and International Politics.

This attitude of staying aloof is reflected in every recent important development of human civilization. When the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and International Law was constructed, instead of proposing modifications to it, Muslim clergy were quick to formulate an alternate Islamic Declaration of Human Rights and Islamic International Law. With better cooperation from Muslims, as important members of humankind, human progress could be easier and faster.

http://www.freemuslims.org/document.php?id=41

Srirangan · 03-27-2006, 12:01 PM

Ray, To save Asim some trouble I'll say what he's gonna. Context, Interpretations and Asim's mom can drive a car. Islam must be good.

03-27-2006, 10:10 AM	#136 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	@ Sparten. Better late than never. I'm trying my best not to insult people here on the people to people level. That just ends up in getting the thread closed. Already one admin claimed one thread to close down as partially being my fault. Don't believe in censorship and would love to take any adversary head on. I'd be damned if someone's left thinking "Oh they got away easy" when one of these threads closes. Neat sig. My fav is one of the opening lines "Tis bitter cold and I'm sick at heart". Last edited by Asim Aquil : 03-27-2006 at 10:24 AM.

03-27-2006, 11:32 AM	#142 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,269 Country:	Sparten, The man in Afghanistan is to die because he converted and can be saved if he reconverts to Islam. Is that a Pashtun tribal law? Is it from the Shariat? Is it from Hudood? Or is it from the Criminal Procedure Code left by the British? Do clarify. I have my doubts about it being a legacy of the British because British Law is in India and the name is changed to Criminal Procedure Code and there is no provision that anyone who converts from any religion to another will be put to death unless he reconverts! ******* In so far as your soldier in the hospital maimed and some dead, I understand the agony. The same is felt in India, where such happenings have been common place ever since the foreign assisted and funded Insurgency has come to be. We have faced the same agony for decades! I am glad you understand the agony and that we suffered the agony many of your compatriots here, on the forum, gleefully applauded! The shoe pinches the wearer. That Moslems are killing Moslem in the NWFP is a very unusal happening in Islam, except for Shias killing Sunnis and vice versa. Why are Moslems killing Moslems in the NWFP? Because Zia released the genie of Islamic fundamentalists and Moslems are reaping what he sowed, thinking it to be a great coup de maître! Sadly, God they say visit the sins of the Father upon the children. It is still not too late. My heartfelt condolences to the family of those in your Army who are dead and my heartfelt sympathies to those wounded and maimed. I do not applaud their sufferings. I empathise with their agony that they and, their families, are enduring, possibly for life! I too have been near vicitim of terrorist bomb attacks, but then unlike you, it was a part of my job so to say and the risk that I had to take because I was a soldier who had to do his duty so that civilians all over India could have a unfretful sleep, even if it meant I stay awake! __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA Last edited by Ray : 03-27-2006 at 11:48 AM.

03-27-2006, 11:49 AM	#146 (permalink)
Bluesman WAB Bartender *Defense Professional* *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-24-04 Location: Vacaville, CA. Posts: 7,514 Country:	Asim, buddy, I really AM with you. The moderates are doing a helluva job in SOME places, and I am not implying that we're eager to kill all the Muslims. Far, far from it. But are you not tired of it yet? Can you not see what we see? I know Dubai is a terrific place - I've done the research, and I intend to see it for myself as soon as i can. Dubai isn't our problem, and I daresay it'll be part of the solution, if there is one. ISLAM is too easily used as a rally point for the ones we can NEVER be friends with. Y'all need a Martin Luther, but of course, we all know what happened in the seat of Christendom when we got ours: genocidal warfare beween the sects, some of which carries on right into the present day. But if it's not the Old Way against the New Way, I guarantee you it'll be All of Us against All of You. You'd better get started. __________________ "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory." - George Orwell

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03-27-2006, 11:15 AM	#138 (permalink)
Srirangan *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-06-04 Location: New Delhi Posts: 3,030 Country:	Superficial question. Let's ask the tough ones. Can they vote? Do they have a right to equality, property, divorce etc. WHy is it that an Arab man can marry 4 while the women can't marry more than one. Equality is the key. Hopefully Teesta Aggarwal will ask the tough questions where they are needed to be asked.

03-27-2006, 11:27 AM	#140 (permalink)
Samudra *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-01-04 Location: North London Posts: 4,430 Country:	So whats that law all about? You show us the rich elite and moderate side of Islam. We dont deny its existence.

03-27-2006, 11:44 AM	#143 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	Errr did you just call me rich? Haha sure. It exists, you say...

03-27-2006, 11:47 AM	#144 (permalink)
Samudra *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-01-04 Location: North London Posts: 4,430 Country:	I remember that Bird which costs so much. Do you deny that women are not allowed to drive in Saudi?

03-27-2006, 12:01 PM	#150 (permalink)
Srirangan *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-06-04 Location: New Delhi Posts: 3,030 Country:	Ray, To save Asim some trouble I'll say what he's gonna. Context, Interpretations and Asim's mom can drive a car. Islam must be good.

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